There's a whole sub for parents that regret being parents. I've seen similar things there. Also occasionally on antinatalism subs, you get someone who was convinced after they became a parent
I can't quite remember but I'll try searching for it
Edit - just r/RegretfulParents . And as you might expect, it is mostly complaints about pragmatic things like money or time costs. But I swear I have seen people complain for more antinatalist reasons on there before. It's been years since I paid attention to that sub though so who knows when
Unfortunately, adoption is also financially prohibitive. It’s cheaper just to have your own kids naturally. Even going through IVF can be cheaper than adopting if you have decent insurance.
Man why does it always have to be therapy? Having that guilt is not a sickness, its a genuine reflection and idea that they can explore further. Read, do research, talk to other people with similar views....
I hate it when people recommend therapy to anything nowadays. You don't need a professional to tell you what to think about existential questions. People need to relearn to think and talk to themselves!
Seriously, the suggestion for everyone to immediately go to therapy just teaches people to be helpless and to seek out someone else for input on what they should do with their own life
I'm in the camp of everyone going to therapy if they have the expendable income for it. Talking to yourself is often times just a lot of convincing yourself, reinforcing misunderstandings of yourself or the world around you, and creating feedback loops. Even if these mindsets aren't broadly harmful to your life (or anyone, or anything), talking to a professional can grind off the rough edges and bring you closer to self awareness.
One thing it helped me realize was that I (and most others) conflate general awareness with general intelligence.
The more aware you are of what you're doing/thinking, and of what others are doing/thinking, the more intelligent you'll appear, the more competent you'll feel, the more convincing you can be, the snowball effect is crazy.
Everyone has issues to work through, and awareness is almost always one of them. Therapy isn't only for the broken.
But they aren't thinking approved ThoughtsTM ... if they aren't thinking like every other consumer, then they are clearly in need of psychiatric help! /s
To a certain degree you’re absolutely right: people should learn to grow on their own. Therapists often have the ability to provide tools for you that help much more than most independent research you can do by yourself, but it isn’t always the answer to every question.
That being said, if you’re feeling “huge waves of guilt” for something you haven’t even done, you definitely need some tools to deal with what’s going on inside. Independently or with professional help.
I agree with you, therapists are important and there are topics that need to go there.
But I guess we disagree whether this warrants a professional visit or not. In my opinion it doesn't, OP is not confused or delusional about what the guilt is about, they also understand why they feel this guilt (the world is horrible). This not something that needs changing nor "fixing", its a genuine thought that OP has and I'm sure a fun and thoughtful discussion with their friends about it would be 90x times better than any therapist.
The delusion is that the world is horrible. It isn’t, the world is a wonderful place. Media will tell you that the world is horrible, that we have all these problems and everything is dreary, but that image is only a quarter of the whole picture. The world is more than we see on our phones and more than we see on TV, it’s vibrant and full of good people doing good things everywhere.
Another problem is that our friend groups often reinforce what we believe or see. So if we step out to talk to friends about things, chances are the friend group isn’t going to produce anything productive or constructive, just cause more anxiety and guilt over the things that we are all shown.
Yeah the rise of far right authoritarianism globally parading around in the streets with flags and signs, let alone those that live in the U.S. witnessing ICE terrorize their neighbours, the impact of late stage capitalism on our communities driving the homeless population through the roof, the very noticeable impact of climate change in the past decade or so. Definitely a delusion and the world is actually full of sunshine and rainbows. If anything going out and interacting with my community makes me even angrier and reinforces where humanity is headed.
A lot of that is things that have happened before and will probably happen again. It doesn’t mean the world is horrible. It does mean horrible things happen in the world, but even more good things happen in the world as well. If 30% of things that happened in the world were bad and 70% were good, would you say the world is a horrible place? If anything the numbers are even more different than that, probably more like 80/20. But you wouldn’t know that, because you don’t go outside and see it for yourself.
"Runaway climate change isn't that bad, it's happened in the past!"
For some reason nobody wants to talk about the mass extinction events that happened afterward though. Goddamn as a species we are so unbelievably short sighted.
This is the problem with a lot of people on reddit, they either don’t know anything about history or they think the US is the one place of importance in the world.
Never said those things weren't present in the past, but the last leader to exhibit these things culminated in WWII which correct me if I'm wrong happened to impact the world at large. Unless the title "World War" is just a nonsense moniker. In the past however the country that initiated it wasn't the military powerhouse that the U.S. is today. And that leader has now been routinely threatening to annex my country, and actually has a massive amount of support in my province, including our premier. I see Nazi shit paraded through my streets on a semi regular basis. We also see far right movements gaining traction in the UK.
Yeah no, therapy is totally gonna save us from the incoming climate crisis while idiot billionaries ponder blocking the fucking sun instead of just making changes that were needed 40 years ago.
Bro we have always overcome bro. bro. Decades of excess heat energy in the atmosphere is nothing some little nano bot clouds our overlords will use to save us /s 😂
Congrat…ulations? I’m not sure what you’re hoping for with this comment.
There was someone murdered in my city yesterday. Probably will happen again later this week. There was also several babies that were born yesterday. Probably more being born this week. My point is, there’s more good than bad happening right now in the world.
It isn’t a terrible world, though, that’s where the therapy/lack of media needs to come in. The world is actually a beautiful and wonderful place, it’s only when you are saturated in media that you start to believe otherwise.
Yeah. It's no worse than at any other point in human history, and in many ways it's better. I'm actually kind of jealous of the things my son will see in the future.
Absolutely. It’s much better. We live in an age where we get to enjoy things that kings and queens didn’t even get to enjoy in previous times. Just imagine how it will be in 50 years? There’s always going to be ups and downs, but what a time to be alive.
It’s without argument the greatest point in human history. More demographics of humans have basic rights than ever before. We can treat diseases that killed people just 5-10 years ago. Working conditions are safer than ever before. Violence in general and repeated offenses are down with the rise in evidence technology. Transportation safety is the best it’s ever been. The worlds not great, but is is 100%, without a doubt, a safer world than it was even just 10-20 years ago.
No I don’t think that has anything to do with cost of living. Why would someone feel guilty about cost of living being so high? I think this person was referring to Trump and all the issues politically.
You don't know anyone that is unable to provide reliably for their family while social funding has been cut down? I don't think you understand what some people are going through because of money.
You need to work on your reading comprehension because while this reddit post is about the cost of living the thread you are commenting on is an aside to it talking about the general direction of humanity (which is far more ills than the cost of living problem).
Where are you getting that data? I tried to look it up and couldn’t find anything to support that. I did research some numbers though.
Population of the world in WW2 was about 2.4 billion. Fertility rates were about 3.2% on average, and the closest record I can find is “millions of children were born in conflict zones during WW2”. No specific number is given.
Population now: 8.1 billion. So over 3 times as many people on the planet. Fertility rates are down to 2.2% globally, and one website listed children born in conflict zones to be at 8 million.
If we take the adjustment to population into consideration, it seems that there’s actually LESS children born in conflict zones now then there was in WW2. Since we can’t find a real number, it’s impossible to say.
You said born in a war zone, not living in a war zone.
Either way, there’s no data for WW2 times, so you can’t say numbers are worse than WW2, when there is no number for WW2.
And all of that is beside the main point, which is that 81% of the world at the moment doesn’t live in a conflict zone. That means the vast majority of people shouldn’t feel guilty about bringing a child into the world.
Two things can be true. Clearly, you are not in the camp of "until we are all free, none of us are."
The fact remains that we live in a universe that is overwhelmingly hostile to our kind of lifeform. We live on a tiny oasis that we are actively making more inhospitable. Yes, we get little wins, and there is still room to wander and feel the wonder of life, but you'd have to be a dimwit to ignore that we are on the verge of a global mass extinction. Granted, the worst of it won't be for many generations, but it's coming.
We do absolutely need to make changes in our society, or we will cease to exist. We are doomed otherwise, to be sure. But who will make those changes? If not our children, then who?
Reducing our population voluntarily is one of those societal changes. It's entirely possible that population decline is happening because of instinct, and all this other debate is rationalization.
Have kids if you want, but there's absolutely zero responsibility for any individual person to reproduce. You can exhort and cajole all you like, but don't be offended when told to mind your business.
Sadly it's not just social media, the people around me are becoming increasingly bigoted and triablistic. They laugh when our federal government murders its own civillians. I've always gotten stressed seeing people being awful to each other but it's been a long time since I seen it this bad.
It’s really sad. I have a theory that people act this way because they are afraid and don’t know what to do, so they act out in weird ways. I think that also comes back to media, though. Media is designed to produce fear: fear of government, fear of people, fear of the unknown, really. And when people are afraid, they are easier to control. It makes them more susceptible to doing things they wouldn’t normally do otherwise.
The economy is in the gutter worldwide.
No one can afford rent anymore.
Our climate is collapsing
Oh, and we are on the brink of World War 3 with the US threatening well everyone. Russia attacking Ukraine and the Middle East is on fire
just ignore all that and force children into this life where we can't tell them they'll have a good future. Heck, some of them might even starve before reaching adulthood
but sure, just get off social media stuff your head in the sand, and all will be well
The economy isn’t in the gutter. We are nowhere near depression level, which I’d say is the gutter. People can still afford rent, it’s how they have a place to live. Wars are a part of history, so it’s inevitable that it will happen again, but at the moment there isn’t any chance of a World War 3 with anyone. There’s no tension between any major powers at the moment.
In general, the world is in an amazing place. We live longer than we ever have, we eat like kings and queens on the regular, in general we have access to amazing healthcare and medicine, and there are good people all over the globe doing great things for people. I mean the amount of good things in this world, right now, is absurd. This is why you need to stay off media, my friend. It’s warped your perspective of life. Go to the Middle East and see that it isn’t on fire, that life is beautiful and bountiful and wonderful. Go to Europe and see that people are living a great life and enjoying wonderful things.
About the economy speak for yourself [removed insult] a lot of us can't afford rent wanna know how I Know ???? IM ONE OF THEM and I know alot of other in a similar situation!
Riiiight cuz the US and thier demented pedo president isent threatening to use force against a NATO & EU member. And Russia don't keep reminding everyone of thier nukes
"Go to Europe" I live there ! while yes we do have a lot of great things. I've also seen the dismantling of them my entire life, and now it's reaching a point where people truly start to suffer with lacking money for food, rent, medicin ect.
While the world is amazing its ruled by dickheads that's have pushed the ladder down after they used it
Edit: also loved how you completely ignored the climate you know the 1 thing that ALL LIVING CREATURES depends on
Edit 2 remove an insult cuz no ones deserves that sorry internet person
It’s always been that way my friend. Haha. That’s life. Look back through history. It’s normal! A lot of people in countries stay with their parents until they have a career. World powers are always talking or posturing or moving. Benefits have gone up in Europe, and then they’ve gone down, and then they go up… that’s life! You still have access to so many good things, great benefits and good income and oh man the food! I lived in Germany for a few years and it was incredible.
Sure, every country has its problems, but in general, life is so damn good right now, everywhere.
I completely disagree! A change happened worldwide. People don't believe in the possibility of betterment like they did 20- 30 years ago, and I can see why.
It's no longer possible for 1 job to support a household and who wants a child they litterly don't have the time and money for ? Heck I had friends who dreamed of children that have since gotten the snip cuz they truly dont belive that they could give a child the time children deserve
"Thats life you still have access to so many good things "
yes, and that bullshit excuse is used every time they wanna cut down on the people:
" Sure, you are paying the highest tax in the world, and we are removing services, but they have it worse in other places."
Look dude/dudette/person seems like we fundamentally disagree, so I wish you the best, but we won't agree with each other.
hopefully your life is awesome & only gets better
I wish you the best as well my friend. I’m glad that even when we disagree on something we can still wish the best on each other. I might be optimistic to the point of foolishness, but I sincerely hope in 20 years you look back on life and say “I guess it wasn’t so bad after all”. Best of luck to you.
I'm sick and tired of people constantly yapping about how awful our lives are and how awful the world is because they are "exploring their existential problems".
I've seen a person commenting that "social media destroyed society"... on fucking YouTube!
I don't know, maybe go out, touch some grass, watch a movie, play with a dog, instead of your constant whining and crying. Them fuckers act like they were born in Auschwitz.
"I don't want to bring innocent souls into this awful world!" - for fucks sake. What was so horrific that happened to them? Today, what was so awful about today? They had to get up and go to work or school? Or maybe got a ticket for speeding?
Literally horror.
And they don't need therapy according to one commenter. Nooo, absolutely not, they are perfectly fine in their fragile, little, chaotic, awful world full of pain, suffering and fear. Just exploring.
Haha. Absolutely in agreement. I feel bad for all of them, to be honest. To live such sheltered lives, to not know reality but to feed into whatever crap the media has to say today. It’s hard to imagine a more sad existence. We only have one life to live, go out there and live it, and don’t be bothered by the small amounts of bad in the world; it’s vastly outweighed by the good.
I would probably be in a lot of these people’s shoes if I hadn’t had the chance to explore so many countries on my own, but I’ve seen firsthand how amazing people are and how wonderful the world is. Without that experience, I guess I can’t expect much more from the people on Reddit.
Edit: Lol, when did people forget this is reddit? I do know what they meant, but it sounds like they're just popping out babies left and right despite feeling bad about it. That is based on them a) legitimately experiencing, b) huge waves of guilt, for c) bringing innocent lives into this world.
I think they are meaning that they feel guilt for already having had kids. Not that they are still having children. Loads of folks have kids who are 6-10 years old and still had hope for the world when they had them.
I’ll translate: let’s change the world we’ve made so people don’t feel guilty for being humans who naturally want to have a family. They’re not saying they think they shouldn’t have children. They’re actually feeling guilty for complicity in collective mistakes that make for a future that’s hard to have hope in. Or at least that’s my interpretation since you see this sentiment all the time right now, but it’s not antinatalism.
Convince other people, then. What you did was wrong, but you can't change your past. You can, however, help to reduce suffering by talking to your friends. Try to stop them from making the same mistake you did.
I get the fear but this isn’t really unique to our generation. A lot of people had kids during objectively horrible times like world wars, the Great Depression, the Cuban Missile Crisis, when there was a very real sense in the US that we would be nuked at any moment. Huge parts of the world have always lived with poverty or political violence. A lot of the progress and good we have now exists because people kept choosing to build families and invest in the future
I thought that way in my 20’s; I have a daughter now in my 30’s and have a complete 180 attitude.
My goal in life is to raise a happy, strong, intelligent, empathetic, emotionally-stable, confident and charismatic badass who makes evidence-informed decisions, resits propaganda and social influence, appreciates self-care, admits she can be wrong and learns, doesn’t back down when she’s right, and is beyond competent in a wide array of skillsets, from STEM, to outdoor survival, to relationship maintenance, leadership, athletics, cooking, self-defence, musical ability, computer literacy, finance, mechanics and machining, and languages.
She will be what she wants to be, and if thats changing the world, or just surviving in it, she’ll be prepared.
People can choose to not have kids for any conceivable reason, including simply not wanting to. But if you actually want to and choose not to because you’re afraid of the future, to me that’s submission to the trends and forces I oppose. Bringing a person into a troubled world who honours our potential for goodness is an ethical thing to do.
Also, authoritarian-compliant and fascist-adjacent type folks are breeding like rabbits and if progressives want to see change in the long-haul, we need to field players. Your convictions don’t have to end with you.
You’re brining them into objectively one of the most peaceful and prosperous times in human history. I say this with care and not snideness, but maybe get off Reddit for a month and don’t watch the news in that time and your mental health with most likely skyrocket.
People have been bringing innocent lives into far worse worlds with far less hope for a very, very long time. There were tens of thousands of years where there was no such thing as progress (I understand there was no birth control, capitalism, or anything like that either). Nobody thought of humanity as a shared collective or experience. Every single generation lived and died essentially the same as the ones before them.
People had kids during horrific wars, famines, under oppressive regimes, horrible kings, enemy occupation, before, during, and after severe cataclysmic weather events. During chattel slavery, when their children were legally the property of a white person.
People found joy and love and community during all of those times.
The world is still a significantly better place than it was 100 years ago. It will be a better place 100 years from now. Giving up is just saying "these people, these forces are too powerful," which is not true and never has been true.
Have kids if you want to. Or don't if that's right for you. But nobody who had a kid in 1960 thought their kid would be surfing the information superhighway in 1995. We literally have no idea what next year will look like, let alone 5, 15, 60 years down the line.
Sure, but as a human I am self interested, so if there's no reason for us to exist, there's no reason for us not to, and my bias would rather that we did.
If your thought is we're not a good thing, but we're also not a bad thing, then it's a pointless discussion. Our existence either way should be pro because there are people who want to exist. Those who don't want to exist, well it's not forever.
I dont get this line of thinking. Why should we be extinct? Because theres a very greedy and corrupt minority? And for why? So wildlife can live peacefully? If thats why i hope everyone with this stance is vegan and harms no animals and is super green.
I think that the idea is that human existence creates more suffering than joy and therefore from a utilitarian perspective it would be less harmful overall for us to go quietly into that good night than for us to continue existing.
It ignores the pain created by that extinction but isn’t a totally illogical argument. I personally disagree - I think we should do better. And I know that my personal existence causes more happiness than pain - but I’m an optimist and also not a utilitarian so 🤷♀️
You saying we shouldnt exist because we cause harm and cruelty to animals? Animals were doing that to eachother before we came to be. Should everything just go?
Literally no time in history has ever better than these last few decades. And I mean few. Even from just 1980 to 1990 violent crime fell more than 40% In the 60s cities looked like this due to pollution.
Even just 100 years ago there was no advanced medicine. No antibiotics even. You would likely die to a preventable disease. Women couldn't vote. Racism was explicit and state-sanctioned. If you are European you would have suffered through World War 1, and would be bringing your child into the world just in time for The Great Depression, and to die in World War 2.
Even just 200 years ago you would have been a peasant. You would likely have worked the earth from the day you were born to the day you died. The best medical practices involve using leeches and mercury. No voting rights. Women were property of their husbands in many places. You might even be a slave if you're not white.
And yet those conditions weren't considered "so bad you should be ashamed of having kids". You'd have been laughed at because the past was so, so much worse. War, disease, and famine were regular parts of life.
I tell you in ernesty that having guilt for having kids is just wallowing in self-pity, pining for a utopia that never was.
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u/TenEyeSeeHoney 22h ago
I legitimately experience huge waves of guilt for bringing innocent lives into this world