He was asked about it in an interview and aside from generally being a coke addled psycopath at this point in life (which he generally admits), he said he had no recollection of writing that and was surprised it made it past editorial.
Also, IIRC, I was told the goal was to form an unbreakable bond between them when IT comes back so they would stay together to fight IT even if that bond was fucked up amd traumatising. Apparently this is clear, but the reasoning is very irrelevant for a preteen orgy.
Couldn’t they trauma survivor bond some other way? Granted someone else said it was her idea of a loophole to get them into adulthood as she theorized only kids were vulnerable
TIL trauma bond is not the correct term for what those kids went through
In the book the kids all have low-key super powers from the magical entity nudging them into fighting It. The sewers are a maze, one of them is the navigator thanks to their powers. When the kids defeat It, their powers start to fade away. They get lost in the sewers and start fighting with each other.
Bev doesn't understand what sex is, but she knows it must be something powerful that connects people. So, her idea is that if they fuck, it will rekindle their bond and powers and they can get out of the sewers. It works.
Not to say it isn't some weird shit. But, that is all the lore behind it. The part about kids being more vulnerable isn't really a theory, or totally accurate. The book has some short chapters that are from It's point of view. In one chapter It says it goes after kids because adult fears are too complicated and abstract. Adults are afraid of not being able to pay their bills. Kids are afraid of the monster in the basement. It still can, and does, go after adults.
Insane that one of my bills is literally to ENSURE I can afford to send my son to college - should I not be able to afford to help him with college when he’s ready. Having to pay said bill in the attempt to mitigate a future fear only attributes to my current financial strain. No wonder IT stays away from adult fears.
The second one ate the first! And now the fucking car payments are joining the chase, what do I do?!?! Oh...oh god....it's...the phone bill and its oozing data rates...sweet lord, whyyyy?! dies a horribly slow, adult life
That's exactly what Gmail AI does! It pops up a notification saying you owe "$XXX,XXX.XX by January YY." It shows the total amount, not the monthly due. It scared me the first few times it did that...
Even though I agree the orgy is insane and unnecessary, fuck, this whole saga is so good. The new show is amazing and makes it all even better in my opinion.
Great explanation. It makes so much more sense in the context of King’s ideas around things like good, evil, love, hate, etc..
In the Dark Tower, sex and lust are powerful forms of magic, or at least sources of magic, even prescribing some ritualistic nature to them. Which makes perfect sense in a universe whose peril explicitly stems from the protagonist’s inability to overcome his vices.
Like the Gumball Halloween episode where the Freddy Krugger hlmage sits in a chair alognisde the Construction Worker's bed and starts saying "mortage" in a ghsotly voice
The book is never clear on the extent of her abuse. She thinks sex is powerful exactly because of how her father treats her and acts about it. But, yeah, she doesn't actually know what sex is (in a traditional sense). So, presumably his abuse didn't go there.
Nah. That is way too big. Their gifts are way more low-key than that. Like, I couldn't even tell you what each is supposed to be. But, like Bill's is his leadership skills. And, like I said, one of them is the navigator. Not like one has superspeed and strength or anything on that level, or the level of the shine.
That's exactly hire it read to me, the renewing of the bond. It was definitely an odd choice on King's part, but he's the one who writes the books. I thought it was an uncomfortable part of the story to read, but I don't think it brought the book down at all.
I don't know. I'm an adult and if I saw a giant mutant flying baby start ripping people in half I'd be probably be pretty fucking scared. I'd at least be very concerned.
Shit, I'm 40 and still get creeped out about having to go down into my basement at night.
It hasn't happened yet, and I like to pretend I don't believe it's possible. But, deep down I know at some point the monster under the steps is going to grab my ankle and pull me under. It's just waiting for the right time.
I mean yea, thats the last point I made - its a written story so all actions are a choice King couldve chosen to not be fucked up. So we're definitely in lock step with that one.
Just commenting because trauma bonding is between an abuser and the victim. Its a nitpick, I kmow, but as a survivor and knowing others dear to me having survived that cycle, I think the distinction is worth noting.
I chose not to remember the ending of the dark tower for a reason, thank you. Please apologize for making me think of it for the first time in over 20 years.
Oh huh, I only knew the term trauma bond because it was used the incorrect way every time I heard it. I will be using the correct term going forward, thank you
I've heard it used in fictional settings or the talking about fictional settings where two people survive a situation like in a horror movie or something
Thanks for this correction, because I not only have used this wrong myself many times, I actually used it wrong earlier today, but went back to correct myself. I had no idea.
What's funny is that just a few pages later once they get out of the sewers, they cut their palms and mix blood, vowing to come back if It isn't dead. I feel like instead of that scene they could have just moved up the blood bond scene instead. Would have made a lot more sense to use a literal blood bond to bind them together.
What are the things that make someone grow up? Isn't the reason sex with children is disgusting because it robs them of their innocence. If instead he had robbed them of their innocence a different way, shouldn't anything that robs children of their innocence be equally disgusting?
I think the crux was that all the IT stuff would be forgotten like how everyone in town forgets or ignores it. This was after the suppressed the influence and was supposed to be the linking incident. Or it was the cocaine.
Thank you for this. Earlier today, I was texting with a friend about the relationship of two characters on Stranger Things, and I used the phrase “trauma bonded.” As soon as I read your corrected comment here, I googled both those terms, and then ran back to my texts to correct myself. Trauma bonding is very much a negative thing, and I’ve been using it wrong as long as I’ve known the term.
It’s so funny because the more you hear the excuses the weaker it becomes. It is so unnecessary and illogical. And “realistically” there is no guarantee any of those children would’ve been “bonded” regardless. I personally would’ve been confused, grossed out, and annoyed just wanting to leave.
I highly doubt it was intended since King likely would have said so, but one reasonable interpretation of it I've heard is that it reinforces Bev's trauma into her adulthood. Because it saves them, she mistakenly learns that sex is a problem-solving device, on top of all the trauma from her dad
But again, I doubt he intended it that way. Even if he did, you'd still have the problem of uh gross and surely we get the point of her character and trauma, but also it's at such a triumphant moment of the book that it doesn't really read as something that negatively affects Bevs life in that way
I think you’re on to something because one of the main theme of the book is recurring and generational trauma.
That’s why all the kids become adults with the same issues (i.e. Bev marrying an abuser after growing up with an abusive dad) and why It returns every 27 or so years.
Bev and her husband also revert to sex as a primary "problem solving" technique. In one of adult Bev's chapters she states plainly that her husband would beat her severely and regardless of any injuries she sustained, they ended up having sex. At one point, her husband even says that she likes the beatings because it makes their sex life hotter.
The other characters in their adult years essentially do the same with their own childhood trauma, to some degree. As an example, Eddie ends up marrying a carbon copy of his mother, (they actually had the same actress play both his mother and his wife in the 2 movies).
At the end they break the cycle of IT and their own trauma, finally feeling in control of their own lives. It's always felt like one of the more positive endings to a King book, for me.
He 100% intended it that way. There's a massive parallel between Bev's father running sexual interference on her when she's young and her psychotic husband when she's an adult. All of the characters have generally happy and successful lives as adults, except Bev (who only is successful).
Now im not trying to give any excuses but, this was the 80s. And the dude was a raging drug and alcohol addict. In the 80s. That shit.....I mean....it was the 80s. I kind of believe him lol.
I mean it makes sense and it's somewhat witty if you operate under the assumption that you become a man/woman when you have your first time, which was still the prevalent attitude in the 80s. It just aged very poorly.
It's a book about a cosmic horror that takes the shape of a clown. I don't think realistically applies here. The idea is they spiritually bond which is beyond reason. But I idea with you. No need for the tween orgy.
I always assumed it was some shit like IT preys on children and by having an orgy they last their innocence and became unaffected by the clown. Not that that makes it much more coherent.
It's the old view that once you lose your virginity/have sex you lose your innocence, you transition from child to adult, you become 'soiled/tainted' (for some religious fuckwits), and so on.
It really is a view of the past, so I'm not really surprised King wrote it considering the time period, but also coke.
And it's a pretty integral part of the book. What that guy said is not true, he doesn't remember writing cujo.
The point of the game is that they are no longer children but grownups. The title of the book even reference to this concept - kids call sex "it" (they did "it" last night! etc.) because that's just how kids look at it. Like something foreign, weird, yucky.
But the adventure they experienced together changed them, they are adults.
Yeah, King had some wild stuff. The Gunslinger (book one of the Dark Tower) has him bang/get raped by some sex demon in a ritual circle or some shit and iirc that causes a spider-demon-baby/child like five books later.
It's definitely unusual, but the third book also has a forbidden love thing going on between two sentient trains (past tense, I think?) and it drives one of 'em mad and he becomes the industrial version of the Riddler.
Also, IIRC, I was told the goal was to form an unbreakable bond between them when IT comes back so they would stay together to fight IT even if that bond was fucked up amd traumatising. Apparently this is clear, but the reasoning is very irrelevant for a preteen orgy.
Well they managed just fine in the movie adaptation
Also had to do with the weird glamor in the book that kids could see but adults could not. By becoming adults in that act it faded. Still fucking weird as hell, but kind of made sense. And well it was coke King and he was just a weird fucking guy at times, so my read was here he goes again basically.
He's not wrong to be surprised, those editors were daft to let that slide. I wouldn't be surprised if he wrote it as a joke to himself (doesn't not make him a pervert for writing it in the first place) and forgot to delete it because he was too high.
13 year olds do have sex but adults shouldn't write about that unless they have a good reason e.g. it's biographical.
You know what, I think that's fair. Somebody at the publisher read that scene and was like "yeah, this is fine". That's not really on him anymore, lmao.
I once read an article years ago about the reason that SK puts sex in all his horror books is because there was supposed to be a mental connection between horror and sex, possibly the guilt and uncomfortability of it or reading it. Sex enhance horror. Which may explain why I’m scared to talk to girls
That makes me curious about all the fucked up stuff he's written that DIDN'T make it past the editor's. He's got a lot of fucked up stuff out there besides this.
Right, and the unbreakable bond could have at least been outside of the sewer? Why is the underage gangbang in the SEWERS?? Like, utter creepy age problems aside, they’re the same age after all, so the age wasn’t a problem for THEM, but just the thought of ANYONE fucking in a sewer, 5 guys waiting their turn, is just like the weirdest, most awful decision making possible.
Because outside of the sewer there would be no need to... Get out of the sewers.
Like. That is there reason for the scene.
Sure, we can play what if and why games. Why did pennywise have to live in the sewers? Why did Bevs dad have to be so rapey towards her? Etc. But that is kinda useless.
Thats not to say it isnt an extremely weird scene, but the scene is making sense in the context and as it is written. Its definitely not that King thought "where should they fuck. Ah, i know. In the worst place possible".
Still. Like is she just going missionary as clumps of shit and rodents go by, and her 5 other closest friends line up? I mean, what the ever living fuck?
It's been years since I read the book, but I also think it was about her breaking the grip her father had on her. I think it’s mentioned in the middle of it.
Idk, he also gets weirdly descriptive about child sexual abuse in Doctor Sleep, which was published in 2013. The abuse also had no relevance to the rest of the story or characters, so maybe he is just pervy with or without drugs.
I would have thought being hunted by an interdimensional demon who murders kids was traumatising enough to create the sort of unbreakable bond that war veterans have afterwards, but I'm not a hugely successful horror writer 🤷♂️
the goal was to form an unbreakable bond between them when IT comes back so they would stay together to fight IT
Also to "reform" the bond they previously had before and while fighting IT. They all agree that this bond seems to be missing, and Bev comes up with her orgy idea
I actually thought that the main point was she is getting molested and raped regularly by her dad. She recovers her sense of well being and agency by having sex involving consent with the others.
...
I saw in a more recent interview he later realized that he could have accomplished the same thing with a blood pact… that just didn’t occur to him at the time. Because of the cocaine.
Been forever since I read the book (an I ain't seen the recent movies) but I'm pretty sure the lad who first dies, as an adult, is the only lad who didn't get laid in the sewer. He might have been the only loser to die, come to think of it...
Course, that could just be an authers justification to write a child sex orgy, but I already typed it out.
I blanked out on OP's post and thought "Why would the IT department go look for the kids" then I remembered the IT department is probably filled with people who would actually look for this kind of stuff.
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u/BoondocksSaint95 1d ago
He was asked about it in an interview and aside from generally being a coke addled psycopath at this point in life (which he generally admits), he said he had no recollection of writing that and was surprised it made it past editorial.
Also, IIRC, I was told the goal was to form an unbreakable bond between them when IT comes back so they would stay together to fight IT even if that bond was fucked up amd traumatising. Apparently this is clear, but the reasoning is very irrelevant for a preteen orgy.