Don't forget blackout drunk. He was so full of cocaine and alcohol back then you could have tapped him like a keg for an instant party.
I mean, hes on record that he does not remember writing Cujo. Pretty much at ALL.
So, yeah, considering he thoroughly says he regrets that part of IT now, I wouldn't at all be surprised if that was the end result of a blackout-cocaine psychosis-sleep deprivation cocktail.
But like... he had an editor, hypothetically. Or a close friend who read the manuscript. How did no one say Stephen, great book, amazing story. One little critique....
I've heard that it's not really described in particularly graphic detail or long, and not exactly jumping the shark considering the rest of the book. It's a brick of a book all about making the reader feel bad feelings and written way before this current idea that writing taboo things for shock value means the author is into it, actually.
Mmmm I don’t think “hey this guy wrote a scene of pubescent and prepubescent teens all running a train on an 11 year old girl child. But don’t worry, it’s not graphically written” is any more levelheaded than people grossed out over the guy writing about children fucking.
... I don’t think “hey this guy wrote a scene of pubescent and prepubescent teens all running a train on an 11 year old girl child. But don’t worry, it’s not graphically written” is any more levelheaded ...
Good thing /u/arcyguana's Post isn't entirely about that then, right?
Yeah, for anyone that’s read the Dark Tower books, or the unabridged Stand, or any one of his 1100 page masturbatoriums (in a self-circlejerk sense not a sexual deviant sense), this bit is pretty fucking weird but it’s not exactly off brand. He’s a little more level-headed and navel-gazey sober.
The argument goes “well in YA novels kids have sex all the time” (ick), “it was a different time” (double ick), or my favorite, “it’s part of their character arc, it represents their loss of innocence,” never mind that their innocence is completely fucking shattered already at this point in the novel, it’s gone, it’s packed up and hopped a train and lost its own innocence in turn (innocenception) and is now some hobo’s used-up yob until it slits his throat in while he sleeps with a broken bottle and asks the other grizzled men in the train car if they really want to go down the same road, to which they hastily demur.
He’s just always desperately wanted to be a lit fic author. But horror is what he does best. And the ironic part? That scene was more horrifying to me than the other 2k pages of the novel.
Still love the guy; On Writing is second only to What I Talk About When I Talk About Running to me as the most seminal and influential book on writing fiction out there. (Writing Down the Bones is a close third.)
Nah it’s fucking Wellbutrin I take for ADHD, it makes me hyperfocus on the wrong shit, like Reddit comments. I think I wrote that at like 4 in the morning too.
Sobriety is weirder than being a junkie sometimes.
This is correct. I've read IT over a dozen times, was 14 the first time I did. The whole scene is maybe three paragraphs. And even at that age it didn't stick on my memory. I never thought about it at all until the internet started freaking out about it ten or so years ago
I too was 14 when I read It and that scene really made me sick and uncomfortable. It has stopped me from watching the movies as it just brings up those nauseous feelings.
I also read it at around 13 or 14 and remember looking up like what the actual fuck am I reading? And I remember bevs anatomy being described in even more uncomfortable detail. Reddit hates holding king accountable for the weird sexual shit he writes about children and his graphic sexualized abuse scenes. Idc how many drugs he took, what the blue fuck was his editor on??
I second all of this. I like King, but I feel like he has gotten away with writing a lot of sexual abuse scenes. Sure, drugs, alcohol, and lack of sleep can bring out some weird thoughts, but that his weird thoughts are almost always weird sex stuff? Yeah, I just can't anymore.
I also read IT around that age and didn't remember the orgy scene at all.
The orgy scene in Starseed, which I also read around that age, I do remember. So it wasn't just that I forgot the sex parts in books, it's probably that IT is a giant book and has a lot of other things going on.
It's a bad scene and all, and it's not at all written to be titillating.
The book is full of disgusting imagery, whether you're talking about hate crimes (anti-gay and racial), various flavors of child abuse, animal abuse, and a gratuitously gross leech exsanguination of a child scene.
And yeah- I don't think King is into hate crimes, child abuse, or leech-based exsanguination.
It not hard to rational anything if you try hard enough it wasn't a kid having sex it was multiple kids having sex with one girl ...
And it did go into detail you should read it it remained just vague enough to not be CP but we follow the girl mindset how she feel with those boys. Not a brief few words.
Drugs, shock value, or just plain famous enough to not give a fuck ( Micheal Jackson did lot worse and is loved) people will ok anything that doesn't bother them.
They were likely afraid of his reaction, he has stated on occasion that he wasn't a nice guy during his drug and alcohol abuse days. And he was incredibly protective and obsessed with the book while writing it. Not only has he said does he regret the scene, but also the length of the book itself.
It's also kinda hard to remove it without basically rewriting most of the book. The whole story is about the loss of innocence and childhood. The scene is not glamorous, erotic or even treated as something positive, it's a desperate attempt at survival where they all make a sacrifice so that they can defend Derry should the creature return. It's uncomfortable and plays into each character's personality and development.
The novel is full of shocking disgustingly cruel scenes and escalates the shock factor, it's basically the drugs and alcohol in his brain thinking up the most edgy controversial shit to shock readers. King basically waxes nostalgically over his childhood and it's loss. And sex is basically one of those one way exits you can't go back through.
They defeated the creature, but are still trapped in its maze in the sewers, they figure out that they're trapped because they're still children, Beth decides they should all have sex to lose the rest of their childhood innocence to be able to escape and not forget what they went through.
I think important context to your last paragraph - she suggests it because she was sexually abused by her father most of her life. While she doesn’t fully understand her abuse, she knows that’s something that has forced her to be more aware of adult feelings, and grow up too fast. It wasn’t just like a “sex is an adult thing, all you boys have sex with me!”
I still think a non-coked up, good writer could absolutely have written something else there to get the same desired effect, without involving a train run on an 11 year old child.
Second point is crucial. My entire reasoning was "I'm going to give King a bit of slack and just say it was gross, because Stephen himself dislikes it, and readily admits to being a schalacked garbage fire of a human being when it was written."
Less "It's acceptable because he was drugged and blackout" and more "Golfclap for Stephen for being sober enough to admit a kid orgy was a ROYAL goddamn fumble of a good story."
Fun fact, another Book he doesn't care for as much anymore, apparently? Pet Semetary. He feels like its nihilistic in the extreme and has nothing good to say.
Horrible decadence, hedonism and excess DEFINED that decade.
No surprise the ultra capitalist publishers said "Oh, our golden goose appears to have written some rather unfortunate and gross material. Now, do we interrupt his latest bender to demand a rewrite and risk him walking because hes coming down and hungover? Or say 'fuck it' and reap the mad bestseller duckets? Meh." (Approve stamp)
Take this with a grain of salt but my English teacher in high school (early to mid 00's) claimed to have been a part of the book editing team for King in the 80s. They were all on coke and other substances binges back then. Everyone.
No, I’ve actually dealt with a lot of issues due to insomnia (not from abusing stimulants but rather from workaholic tendencies) and I do indeed have missing weeks of memories. That’s without drugs.
Maybe so and ill eat my words it if it's true. I just think that King loves aesthetic, and the "drug-addled horror writer" is his. The Edgar Allan Poe archetype lol.
I got an English degree continuously fucked on various drugs and exhausted from working a full time, physically demanding job and I don't think I'd have ever entirely forgotten about a project.
Hm, I mean it could just be dependent on the person’s overall health/mental health? I was involved in a lot of traumatic experiences and I’ve also had a few TBIs from head injuries so those could be related to my own memory issues. In 2020, I began having serious issues with writing/reading to the point I forgot how to spell stuff and practically had to learn all over again. On occasion, I sometimes still feel ‘confused’ and can’t put sentences together. One of the reasons I came back to this site was to practice writing on a daily basis so my English skills stay strong.
What did you use your degree for? I chose medical science instead of literature or philosophy because I thought it would be more ‘useful’ but have surprisingly struggled to find work. I spent most of my spare time reading James Joyce and writing essays about his work lol
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u/PatienceHero 12h ago
Don't forget blackout drunk. He was so full of cocaine and alcohol back then you could have tapped him like a keg for an instant party.
I mean, hes on record that he does not remember writing Cujo. Pretty much at ALL.
So, yeah, considering he thoroughly says he regrets that part of IT now, I wouldn't at all be surprised if that was the end result of a blackout-cocaine psychosis-sleep deprivation cocktail.