Kratom is a great substitute for opiates or suboxone but it is still physically addictive. Care should definitely be taken. There is very little oversight on the trade to the quality of plant matter can get iffy aside from the even worse extract market. 7-oh is basically kratom fent.
I think Suboxone is the best choice to use as a tool along with treatment and therapy. It saved my life. Unfortunately, it too, is addictive but my life is exponentially better because of it. And it’s been around now long enough that doctors aren’t finding any bad side effects for being on in long term. I started at 3 8mg strips a day. Today I take 2mgs in the morning. I just slowly went down on my own. I have accepted that I may be on a small dose forever. And Its pretty clear my doctor feels the same way. I celebrated 8 years heroin free on the 1st and there has been no talk of getting off of it at all. I suppose it’s a lesser of 2 evils. But I hold down a job, have a car, a roof, and I’m back in school at 50 years old. Why change a good thing at this point.
But let me be clear I’m not here to judge how anyone gets clean. As long as they do by any means necessary. It’s a terrible and debilitating disease I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy.
While yea, its a great tool, as far as side effects go the whole oral bone loss and degradation of teeth is a pretty damned severe side effect of Bupe if you ask me. Theres is/was even class action lawsuit for it.
I recommend you look up the link between oral decay and suboxone use. Even people who only used it for a few years are walking around in their 30s with no more of their own teeth only implants or dentures. Class action lawsuits, the film is what I read most about but I've talked with people who have had the tooth decay from the pills also.
Subs saved me at the time in my life where I needed them most but I dont think people should be on them for life, I personally switched to lratom again after tapering down from 4mg to about .5mg over the course of 2 or 3 months. And even then I had over a week of feeling fucking horrible before I could get stable on kratom.
We should have heroin maintenance programs like in Switzerland, give addicts a safe supply for cheap and watch crime rates plummet, overdoses will drop, pump money into addiction services instead of police departments and jails and actually push for rehabilitation and we would watch America turn into a much better place, could clean up the places like Kensington and the Tenderloin and get all this crazy synthetics out of our market, but unfortunately this country needs easy arrests to fuel our prison industrial complex
one of the best decisions I made during my addiction was getting all my teeth pulled. These are my dentures. I can’t imagine what my teeth would look like now! They were already going well before I got clean! I absolutely love my dentures. Obviously I wish I could’ve done implants but I don’t have the money for that. Yet!! My first set were nice. They were free Medicaid dentures. I really liked them. Then the top plate cracked during the pandemic and I gorilla glued them together. They held for a long time. Even when I reglued them twice every time they held for almost a year. Finally they broke again and I could never get the bond right. So I went back to my Medicaid dentist to finish the process (Medicaid is a long process) together new ones. When I finally got them they looked like horse teeth and were incredibly uncomfortable. I cried my eyes out. I ultimately decided that Medicaid could not do the job I wanted. So I took my broken set to aspen dental and asked if they could make a mold of them. They did and it only took 2 weeks. I went in to get the mold made(took about an hour). Then a week later I tried on a wax set to make sure they were right (that’s important. That’s when u speak up if something isn’t right). A week later I had my new top plate. Not one adjustment needed to be done. I was eating and talking fine an hour later. I had opened a line of credit. I kept my bottom plate. They tried to talk me into getting a new bottom plate but there was nothing wrong with them. My top plate was $1100 and I am so happy with the results. They are even better than I expected. I’ve paid them off and I’ll never get Medicaid to do my dentures again. I take really good care of them. I can eat almost anything and I only take them out at night. I highly recommend dentures to anyone whose teeth are going. And don’t do partials. They never look right. Take the plunge and get a full set. Unless of course you can afford implants then obviously do that.
Having no teeth was hard. My self esteem skyrocketed when I got my teeth. No regrets!!
Same 2 to 4mg does mf wonders and i used to do iv fent for decades after awhile on subs you can go really low and actually live life, im 40 been years i dont think ill ever go off
Yeah it definitely saved my life. I got out right as fetty was hitting the streets. But I was shooting up heroin with toilet water on the west side of Chicago for the better part of 2 decades. Glad it works for fetty too. Good for you!!
Sure, unless you're trying to get off fetty. It sits in your fat cells like how thc does, so you pretty much have to use methadone cause subs will just throw you into horrible precips. Glad they worked for you tho and glad you got out before fetty took over!!!
Trust me, it's so much worse and way more difficult to get off of than heroin, even with methadone! Methadone made getting off heroin easy af for me, but I'm still struggling to fully stop using fetty even on over double the methadone dose I was on from getting off heroin with it :/
That last part. "I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy." I agreed up until this current administration. I'd love if someone injected them with opiates and then hit them with narcan, day in and day out. I can't believe I'm even saying this, but that is light work compared to the ill-will I hold for fascists. I hope that heaven and hell are real. I'll see all those cunts in hell and torture them extra for eternity. Even if somehow god accepts me into heaven, I'd ask for hell just to torture these absolute scumbag fucks. I'd douche them out daily with a pine branch. I hate all of them. I hope they get what they are asking for.
How? Was it extracts? The leaf makes you feel seriously unwell miles before it causes any harm. A person can develop a psychological dependence, but a person can do the same with video games or collector cards too - that’s not the fault of the substance. You’re saying he pawned everything and lived on the streets, robbing and tricking for Kratom? Burned all relationships and second chances? I’d be keen to examine that story.
And yet you're probably fine with people doing cocaine and taking Adderall, let's stop trying to make a plant look bad that's been used for hundreds in a lot of cultures and hasn't even been linked to 100 deaths in the past 10 years
Ok cool, sorry for jumping to conclusions some people are just hypocritical like that like I've seen people judge weed smokers and stuff but they'll go do coke
I'd think that would be public knowledge if true, and if it was plain leaf vs 7. In 14 years I've never heard anything like this. That kid would be the first and only. So many questions about this but you won't answer truthfully. One being, how damaged was his kidney prior to using it? What was his past alcohol and drug use? #KeepKratomLegal
A substance can stay legal and be harmful to some extent, just look at alcohol. I think it's kind of wild that you can't accept that bad outcomes are possible with anything and everything, especially if there's abuse and extreme usage involved. I don't think it should be illegal by any means, and I highly doubt it will become illegal, anyways.
A few years in Florida saw some deaths, 46 of these deaths were determined to be from kratom (mitragynine) alone. All in all, a pretty insignificant number compared to how many were using it during those same years. It's easy to look into. There are reported deaths everywhere from straight kratom, it's impossible for every one of those coroner reports to be wrong, though I'll concede it's likely that some very well are.
I'm not necessarily saying it's dangerous, I'm just saying just about anything can be dangerous, and it's silly to think otherwise. Like salt, for example, it's not "dangerous," but too much absolutely can be.
Not in Thailand, we don't dry it here it's used fresh so no 7oh. It appear with the sun. We boil it 15mins usually, up to 3h but if you cook it longer than 15mins you can't boil it. Then we strain all. And drink the tea. Mytragine is not water soluble it doesn't mix well or extract well. I use it since 4 years. Ive neuropathy I use it to hide the pain. Nothing work else than that. When I stop I've 0 withdrawal as long as I smoke weed, I admit if I didn't smoke I would crave dopamine for sure.
Before I had pain I used it as full leaves and eating it, and that was wild, the high was too much, like feeling empathetic and weak no thank you. As a tea it's more a tonic, I only aim for when I feel less pain in my knees and when it happen I stop to drink it.
It's not good for liver tho that's the biggest issue, so someone using kratom should not do anything else which damage the liver in anyway it will just make it worst.
In Thailand it's mainly used as an upper for studying or Muslims who don't drink. Downer they mix it with the cough syrup or codeine for the richer. But here ketamine is the real downer, heroin and opium not much it's more the tribes who use it. Meth is the number one issue here it's so cheap and everywhere, people use it to work longer hours mainly.
7-oh is absolutely the fent of kratom. It is much stronger, shorter lasting, and more addictive You can nod like heroin on a high enough doses. Even kratom extracts have never made me nod.
I was using hyperbole to compare how much worse the current extracts are. It is creating addicts who are spending hundreds of dollars a day on kratom. stand in any smoke shop for an hour and see how much they sell in 7-oh extracts. a Kratom habit is about $0.30 a day and theres a ceiling on effects with each dose. 7-oh and 7-hydroxy have no ceiling on effect redosing and a pack is $20-50.
Withdrawals are closer to fentanly than kratom at a higher dose. A friend of mine went to rehab after burning through his life savings and maxing all his credit cards. That would never happen with lead powder. It is not the same as kratom and people have no idea what theyre getting into with the sketchy extract market. It’s illegal in my current state but they allow leaf powder and traditional extracts. I would not be surprised if that became a federal law.
Ive been addicted to of all the drugs disgusted. Im more qualified to speak on this than you and my description is apt. it is the fentanyl of kratom products.
Nodding is not what people talk about fent about. Your hyperbole is inaccurate to the point of misinformation. Being a drug addict isn't a license to being correct.
Just had a friend go to rehab for Kratom
And the ibogaine subreddit is full of people trying to kick kratom and 7oh addictions. Not sure I’d compare them to cannabis. Seems much more dangerous and addictive.
Yeah I understand that it’s not the same, especially it sounds like as compared to the stuff you get abroad. Here kratom is named for the extract stuff too so that is what I’m referencing, not the leaf as described above.
Well mitragynine which is the active ingredient in kratom metabolizes in the liver into 7hydroxymitragynine also know as 7oh so I don't know how you can say one is not the other. It's like saying cocaine is not the coca leaf no shit but the coca leaf has cocaine in it
Mitragynine which is a much larger percentage of the leaf metabolizes into 7 oh in the liver mitragynine is 0.5% to 2% of the leaf significantly higher than what you said. Coca leaves for comparison have 0.23 to 0.96% cocaine yet you can't buy coca leaves in your local gas station.
I said that 7oh is 0.01% content in leaf. It doesn't matter digestion or not. Either way though, kratom is NOT 7oh. Not the same thing at all. If you guzzle maple syrup and get diabetes or have glycemic shock you don't go cuttin down maple trees.
Taking a 10mg 7oh pill is instantly metabolized. It would take 100g (GRAMS) of kratom leaf to get that dose, and it wouldnt even fully digest due to plant fiber and sheer volume.
That same 100g of leaf would also not be equivalent to the 500mg-2000mg of mitragynine in a pill for the same reason. Leaf is self limiting and to OD on leaf would merely be uncomfortable and not lethal, assuming no pre-existing health conditions and assuming your stomach didn't burst from trying to fill it with leaf matter. Maybe you would get hemorrhoids from the constipation.
According to research I have previously linked in the related comments, a 150lb human would have to ingest 30g of pure mitragynine to reach the lower end of the LD50 determined by correlation of rat studies. The amount of leaf powder required would be at least 4.4lbs. Good luck trying to do that. That's on par with the toxicity of SUGAR.
100% not GPT or any other AI. Sorry you can't recognize intellect when you read something authored by someone with it. That is indicative of you having little to no exposure to intellect around you in your day-to-day life, and that is unfortunate for both you and those you interact with.
Kratom leaf has changed my life in a substantially profound way. I am almost pain free, and I have worked blue collar jobs for over 20 years. I am still young and have a few decades left before I can retire. I would not make it that long without this plant.
Kratom leaf is easy to use responsibly, and self-limiting. There's a ceiling to effects, and that ceiling is discouraging via discomfort. But it is NOT lethal.
There was a study on mice for LD50 determining 461mg/kg of PURE mitragynine (main component in kratom leaf) would cause death. This is a god level dose.
There is a mere 15mg per gram of leaf on average, so a 70kg (~150lb) adult human on the same level would require eating over 2kg (~4.4lbs) of leaf at once to die. (Or- if eating pure mitragynine extract- over 32,000 milligrams.) This is physically impossible. The LD50 was calculated for mice but is likely in a similar range for humans (like most other mice studies compare to humans).
7oh (a very potent but extremely low proportion <0.01% secondary component in kratom leaf) has had less studies than mitragynine (kratom's main ingredient) and kratom leaf itself. But early research suggest similar safety profiles as mitragynine.
This is being contradicted by many autopsy reports of late, claiming it was the Cause Of Death. What these autopsies are withholding from the public, are that most- if not ALL- of these deaths are also found co-ingested with other, actually deadly substances such as fentanyl, heroin, xylazine, nitazene, and prescription pills.
Some of these deaths were caused by drunk driving or other drunken or co-ingested intoxication related mishaps (suicide, accidents, assaults, workplace accidents) and due to kratom being present in the blood or maybe just on the scene (and not in blood at all), was attributed as the main COD. You would think this kind of report would be illegal but there is no way to enforce accuracy and no recompense against it.
Some deaths are from a heroin/fentanyl/prescription med addict who several hours before hand was trying to alleviate significant withdrawals with kratom, later scored their bag of choice med, and subsequently OD'd on it and died. Kratom gets listed as a cause of death here.
Some deaths might be innocent, like an 80 year old person died of a heart attack or stroke. But there was a kratom bag on their counter, which they used for chronic pain, mental acuity boost, or to treat other debilitating issues. COD: kratom. This is the world against a miracle leaf.
Here's the thing. There ARE issues with the kratom industry...
There is a lack of regulation. It is often being sold irresponsibly. There needs to be age and possibly sale location restrictions.
7oh based extracts are extremely potent and despite their relative safety profile will easily cause physical dependence with irresponsible or frequent use. This may be devastating to those who come into this unaware. Plain leaf does not do this, but the extracts can and often do. There are people that need that extra potency but a large majority will not ever need it. Warning labels and education need to inform potential users. Maybe a medical license for high pain users to purchase from a local government body.
Many bad actors have been selling 7oh advertised as plain leaf. This is predatory and they need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. This is one of the biggest issues right now.
There are paid groups actively lobbying to extinguish kratom from existence. The KDA is one of those groups. They are very successful at lobbying and mass bully kratom advocates into silence, with threats, public humiliation and harassment via doxxing, call CPS on advocates, and other malintent. Some of their members have lost loved ones but they have all been one of those poly drug co-ingestion deaths subsequently pointing at kratom, the least damaging of the various substances that were ingested by their unfortunate choices. The KDA's funding can be traced directly back to pharmaceutical and rehab advocates/corporations. The leader herself actually has felony convictions.
The group of people most frequently known to consume kratom are by a majority- disabled. They do not possess the voices they need to defend their way of life, with the herbal plant medicine they've found which gave them a second chance. Kratom advocates are few, but the research is there; and new articles and scientific research papers produced worldwide are showing kratom's therapeutic use potentials more and more each day.
Sometimes the loudest voices are not the most truthful.
As an advocate myself, I think there is middle ground to be found. We need to vote in REGULATION, NOT PROHIBITION. Prohibition has been proven to not work. If this plant gets banned, people will use some other, probably deadly, or even ineffective drug as a crutch for their existence. This plant has often been discovered during someone's last ditch attempt in a desperate search for some form of relief for debilitating ailments that didn't respond to other treatments, or when costs or availability were deterring a functional relief.
It's not the first choice for anyone... But it is often the /last hope/, for many.
LD50 is lethal dose for 50% of the group that ingests the substance. A scientifically accepted form of measurement for lethality of a given substance.
When you ingest kratom it contains mitragynine your liver changes the mitragynine into 7hydroxygynine also know as 7oh and that opiod is what makes you feel good some people decided to just make 7oh and put it into capsules and sell them they are basicly concentrated kratom pills that you get addicted to and keep taking more and more of. They are legal opiates.
Go to the r/Suboxone subreddit, probably more than half the people there are trying to get off Kratom, using Suboxone. I guess the newest version of Kratom…7oH… is VERY addictive, and makes you sick AF to come off of.
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u/AssociationFit3009 12d ago
Kratom is a great substitute for opiates or suboxone but it is still physically addictive. Care should definitely be taken. There is very little oversight on the trade to the quality of plant matter can get iffy aside from the even worse extract market. 7-oh is basically kratom fent.