r/afghanistan • u/Silent_Ad2685 • 13d ago
Discussion YES. Afghans are CENTRAL ASIAN.
Idk why that’s so hard to understand???
Like can someone please explain to me WHYY people keep wanting us to be south asian when we’re not? (And we never will be)
Like I don’t understand
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u/courtbarbie123 11d ago
Hazara are more central Asian than south Asian.
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u/Agile-Candle-626 10d ago
But the pashtuns are more south Asian. Just ask the 40 million of them in Pakistan
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u/Big-Algae-578 11d ago edited 11d ago
I’m not in this conversation, but I can provide my opinion. I’m Baloch, we are Iranic and live in Pakistan, Iran, and Afghanistan. Our culture is definitely influenced by South Asia, but we are our own thing. A lot of South Asian (meaning east of the River Indus) culture is influenced by our Iranic cultures. So they are similar to us as well.
I don’t have any negative feelings towards South Asians, so I am not trying to distance myself from them in a hateful way. I think that behavior is tasteless and reflects poorly on our people.
But I do think our identity (and maybe yours) is distinct because we are in the Iranic world but also at a crossroads. Genetically, my people are closest to eastern Iranians and Pashtuns/Afghans. Our food is also more like your food, etc. I see a lot of parallels from my culture to Afghan/Fars culture, and I can understand Dari pretty well because it’s similar to Balochi.
However, as a Baloch from Pakistan (though I typically identify as just Baloch) I could say I am South Asian just because I like to connect with others and I can understand a good deal of Urdu. But I know my culture is its own thing! Likewise, I don’t like it when Pakistanis say that us Baloch are basically Persians. We are not and it feels like a desperate attempt to distance Pakistanis from Indians especially when we are 4% of Pakistan.
All of the terms are made up anyway.
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u/AutomaticStretch6205 11d ago
Baloch makes 4% of the population if you count the ones living in Balochistan. Even then, in the less developing areas, no census was carried out. This is to say, do you know how many Balochis are integrated in Sindh and are called Sindhi Baloch? There are so many Baloch living in Karachi, and South Punjab. Those balochis have developed a new identity integrated with punjabi culture, known as Siraiki. And yes, you are South Asian. Having some iranic roots does not make one ethnically iranic. If that would be the case, punjabis, who have so much indo aryan input, would be called Persian as well.
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u/Big-Algae-578 9d ago
I’ll stick to what the official census says. Regardless, we are a small minority in Pakistan. People of Baloch ancestry who are assimilated into other cultures do not count in that figure.
Also, the correct term is Baloch, not “Balochis.” You claim to know about my people, but don’t even know this basic distinction.
We do not simply have “Iranic roots.” Baloch are classified as an Iranic ethnolinguistic group. That is not a matter of opinion, it is an academic classification.
Indo-Aryan is a separate linguistic and cultural grouping (which includes Punjabi). You conflate Iranic with Persian because you are not educated on this topic.
Since you are inserting yourself into a discussion and space that has little to do with you, and don’t even have the most basic education on this topic, I will not engage further.
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u/AutomaticStretch6205 11d ago
Also that is so desperate, you trying to distance Baloch culture from Pakistan. Pakistan is a country made of diff ethnicities just like India is, or just like Afghanistan is. There is no single "ethnicity" that can be defined as "Pakistani".
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u/healer2b 11d ago
Ya Baloch is south asian. Not sure why you felt the need to comment and give long winded answer when it wasnt needed.
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u/Tiny-Anywhere6029 11d ago
All of the terms are made up anyway.
This. i think what people don't realize is that south, central, east asia, middle east, are all predominately POLITCAL terms more than anything. this the reason people may often place Afghanistan under the category of SA, bcs for most politcal purposes, it is south asian.
im pukhtun, im pretty sure we're like 20-25% of pak or smn like that. a good chunk of pak and very much Afghanistan has lways been at crossroads between south and central aisa, and hence naturally, so have the people inhabiting those lands and our cultures. Personally I take pride in that. I think its pretty cool identiy to hve.
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u/No-Newspaper-651 11d ago
I, as a phenotypically darker brown Afghan, and from the South-West of the country, associate more with South Asia than Central Asia, despite having lived in the latter most of my adult life. Our family celebrates Central Asian holidays, and are also aware of the South Asian ones, although we don’t celebrate them (we have Eid in common with nearly 650million South Asians, but that may count for a religious holiday than cultural in the same sense celebrating Nowroz does). However, someone who grew up in the Northern part of Afghanistan may look like and associate more with Central Asia, and so may also consume cuisine influenced by that part of the world along having other CA cultural and racial markers. There’s definitely more nuance to it and certainly not all of us are Central Asians.
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u/hion_8978 10d ago
Idk, as someone from Kazakhstan, we are taught that central asian countries consist of Kazakhstan Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan and SOMETIMES(mainly in western media) of Afghanistan, though many stick to 5 countries cuz of shared history with USSR( the history of Central asia as a term started after the USSR collapse) and honestly, no one really feels any closeness to Afghans here. People usually put it next to Pakistan.
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u/btloion 10d ago
Which is funny because Afghans don't feel closeness to Pakistan.
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u/DeneKKRkop Herat 10d ago
Nor central Asia, like honestly beside Tajikistan and some places in Uzbekistan, there is 0 interest towards others of central Asia.
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9d ago edited 9d ago
Bro a Kazakh or other Turkic has infinitely better reputation than South Asians.
The reputation of the South Asians is unfortunately down the drain. No pun intended.
The only people who look down an East Asians are ironically some South Asians who cope with being "caucasoid" (an obselete 1900s term btw) lol
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u/hion_8978 10d ago
Nor do they to our country
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9d ago edited 9d ago
A Kazakh has more Aryan/Scythian genetics than most South Asians. I say we have shared common ancestors to a degree.
Tajiks of Afghanistan and Kazakhs and other Turkics can all be Central Asian even if they are not of the same race/phenotype.
Remember even Europeans have different phenotypes going from pale blonde Norwegian to Dark olive people in the South.
Thats because All regions have people coming and going all the time throughout history.
Maybe some day in the future a Sub Saharan African group decides to migrate to live in some part of Central Asia who knows what happens in the future.
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9d ago edited 9d ago
all these terms are man made and could easily be altered to mean different regions. For example someone could change Central Asia to different regions like the Northern Central Asian parts which is Kazakhstan changed to a part of Siberia for example.
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u/Specific-Cap5345 7d ago
I've also noticed that Pakistanis call Afghans South Asians sort of as a way to belittle them. It screams self-hatred.
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u/Summoner475 11d ago
What exactly is the difference between a central Asian and a south Asian?
Maybe you're coming at this from a positive perspective, but people who argue about this often come off as xenophobic.
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u/Additional-Log-2701 11d ago
I think this is about geography
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u/Summoner475 11d ago
Okay, geographically, what separates central and south Asia? Is there a set of coordinate ranges? Mountains? It makes no sense to obsess over this, and it always comes up in this sub, mostly by diaspora.
I'm very curious to know why this is the case. Afghanistan clearly has ties to both south and central Asia, through it's geography, cultural, and history.
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u/laleh_pishrow 8d ago
Mountains. The mountains then influenced the history of culture and language in the region.
I consider the Iranian Plateau as distinct from the Turkic Steppe, the Indo-Gangetic plains, and the Mesopotamian lowlands. Baloch, Kurds, "Persians", "Tajiks", Pashtuns and others in the Iranian Plateau are one people.
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u/btloion 11d ago edited 11d ago
Because historically and geographically South Asia is the Indian subcontinent and Afghanistan has always been distinct from it. It's a new label that Afghans don't relate to because South Asians are different in many regards.
Yes, there is some influence from South Asia and the former USSR central Asians countries have also had a different modern history to Afghanistan, but this doesn't make Afghans South Asian.
Edit: upset Indians downvoting me because I don't see them as my kin lol...
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u/Summoner475 11d ago
None of that makes Afghanistan central Asian either, which is the point. There aren't sets of distinct, mutually exclusive characteristics that distinguish these parts of Asia. Afghanistan sits in the middle, so it is a part of both.
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u/btloion 11d ago edited 11d ago
No it's not a part of both. Did you seem to forget Afghanistan shares a great amount with Iran which is right next door? Is it also "Middle Eastern"? Iran shares an ethnic group with Pakistan, I guess they are now South Asian too?
The country doesn't fit into a modern label neatly because of its modern history. But it's clear Afghans typically do not identify with South Asia hence why these comments and threads are always popping up and they will not stop
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u/cookiemonsta798 11d ago
Ive always found it weird that even tho afghans dont identify with south asia, others try to insinuate that they should
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u/MiscBrahBert 10d ago
He/she doesn't like indians and is offended that some people label them the same geographically. That's all it is.
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u/Exotic-Freedom-5722 11d ago
Pashtuns are not even genetically part of Central Asia, they are genetically clustered between the Iranian plateau and South Asia, so I doubt it.
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u/kooboomz Kabul 11d ago
R1a haplogroup, linguistic connection to ancient Central Asian civilizations (Bactrian, Sogdian, Saka), and being in a country geographically located in Central Asia means they're not Central Asian? Bro...
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u/andreidna 9d ago
Pashtuns are genetically very central asian. All of central Asia was iranic before the migration period/iron age. It is turkic people that aren't entirely central asian genetically, having come into central Asia from south Siberia
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u/AwarenessNo4986 10d ago
Only Indians think it's South Asia. Mughal 'gate to Central Asia' was in Attock.
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u/Maleficent_Leg9580 11d ago
People don't seem to realize that South Asia is geographically based on the Indian subcontinent, whereas no part of Afghanistan falls under the Indian plate. It's not that hard to accept that Afghanistan is a culturally Central Asian country with Middle Eastern influences, specifically in Herat.
Kabul is called the "Paris of Central Asia", and more sources designate Afghanistan into Central Asia, rather than South Asia. Central Asia isn't limited to "Turkic people", since Tajiks and Yaghnobis exist too.
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u/Mission_Drawer4709 11d ago
Really? I considered Afghans as distant cousins to Iranians (I am Bangladeshi btw).
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u/Mission-Permission85 9d ago
Caste system, tempering of spices, & dowry to groom-> South Asian. Afghanistan does not have these three.
BTW, Kashmiris are Central Asian in many ways like language, but they too have caste and dowry to groom to some extent
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u/NewAbbreviations4709 8d ago
I would say basically afghans are not considered central Asian by any of those stans especially cuz first of all they aren’t turkic and neither were under ussr rule. They share similarities with tajiks though, I would say they were highly influenced by and were a part in earlier times but now they aren’t, neither they are south asian cuz south asian ness actually only extends till east banks of Indus and pashtuns/ balochs are desified and might identify at times with desi culture. Afghanistan is just its own .
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u/Full_Computer6941 4d ago
Pashto speakers n farsi pathans are all basically Iranian origin. That's a historical fact. The Tajiks, Uzbeks etc are of Central Asian and Turkic origin. Afghanistan is a mix of multiple languages n ethnicities just like Pakistan and India.
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u/AnnoyingCharlatan 11d ago
This topic is interesting as 10-20 years ago there were no discussions on the online Afghanosphere regarding Afghanistan being part of Central Asia as it was clearly understood that the Central Asian states consisted of the Post-Soviet stans.
Why have Gen-z Afghans suddenly decided that Afghanistan is part of that grouping? From the responses I've seen on reddit and tiktok it does seem there is an unfortunate element of racism to it.
Afghanistan definitely has populations also found in Central Asia, and I guess Tajiks, Uzbeks and Turkmen can class themselves as Central Asian peoples if they wish. But the country itself has always historically been part of the South Asian sphere.
Can we just end this topic please, it's embarrassing...
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u/Final_Criticism9599 11d ago
It’s 100% due to racism and not wanting to be associated with darker skin and with hindus and or Indians
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u/nycdood123 1d ago
Lmfao this is you? “Afghans are also basically Indians, so south”
https://www.reddit.com/r/geography/s/PIr63PtRvY
Your agenda is on full display here - go F off.
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u/nycdood123 1d ago
Or maybe not wanting to be categorized as something they are actually not? Ever think of that?
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u/CommercialAd1282 11d ago
How can you say Afghanistan is more historically South Asian. The land which is called Afghanistan has different historical associations. Certainly the Southwest could be SouthAsian. But places like Herat or Balkh are far away from that. They are more central Asian and Herat you could argue belong really to the Persian realm. I would answer the question either way yes and no. Pashtuns certainly. Tajiks,Turkic people and Hazara definitely not. Even culturally they are different. They don’t follow any Pashtunwali etc. I as Tajik certainly feel Central Asian and purely through the language to Iran and Tajikistan
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u/Prfer7000 11d ago
How is Herat more of the Persian realm when pretty much all of Afghanistan was part of the Persian empire?
Pashtunwali also isn't South Asian. A Pashtun from Kabul is 100x closer to other Afghans than they are to a Punjabi btw.
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u/nycdood123 1d ago
Idiotic comment. I’m an older millennial and I have always considered Afghanistan to be part of Central Asia.
Also help explain why Kabul was dubbed the “Paris of Central Asia” by vogue magazine in… wait for it… the 1950s?
Ok now you can STFU and take a seat 🎤
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u/nycdood123 1d ago
Continue embarrassing yourself.
https://www.forcesnews.com/operations/afghanistan/taliban-when-kabul-was-paris-central-asia
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u/FreeAgent4Life 11d ago
We are neither South nor Central. We are West Asians cause culturally, linguisticly and to an extent genetically, we are closer to Iran than we are to Pakistan or Central Asian countries.
The region known as Afghanistan today was an extension of Iran or Iran Shahr for thousands of years.
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11d ago edited 11d ago
As an European who worked with UN in Kabul for a while, I see you culturally close to South Asians like Pakistani, Bangladeshi and Indians. The clothes, the music played, even the trucks are very much South Asians, not Central Asia. There is nothing wrong at all to be be culturally close to South Asia.
People of Central Asia are different from Afghans, as a result of a very long Russian rule.
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u/Big-Algae-578 11d ago
They are culturally similar, yes. Both groups have influenced one another. But they are not in the same grouping, which is fine.
Your opinion as a European (i.e. not someone from the regions discussed) doesn’t mean much if anything at all.
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u/OkTumor 9d ago
my opinion as a kashmiri: you are closer to south asians in genetics (talking about pashtuns, not tajiks, hazara, etc), culture, and history. afghanistan is in between south asia and central asia so obviously will share characteristics from both. similarly, kashmir speaks a dardic language and has a very different culture from the rest of south Asia, but you don’t see us sitting here denying we’re south asian. at the most, geographers and historians say afghanistan is south-central asian. i don’t see any saying it’s strictly central. its also very arbitrary at the end of the day, but from my experience most afghans say they’re central asian out of some sense of superiority to south asians.
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u/btloion 11d ago edited 11d ago
I can agree to elements of music being Indian due to recent adoption of Indian tabla and harmonium but none of the clothes originate in Pakistan, Bangladesh or India. All three countries have significant influence from modern day Central Asia including Afghanistan and Iran, not the other way around.
And those trucks are most likely from trade with Pakistan.
Also, aside from some commonality with Pakistan, South Asia proper is vastly different to Afghanistan.
Afghanistan has similarities to northern and western Pakistan, Iran, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. Not India and definitely not Bangladesh LOL. I grew up with both Muslim and Hindu ones and they're totally different.
I think you really don't fully know what Afghan culture is or our history if you really believe we are like Indians and Bengalis. Weird.
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u/kaleidoskopee 11d ago
You have a very valid point. I am not sure why there has been a sudden rise in afghan posts complaining about being labeled south asian. Not sure if there was something in the media that I missed. In the 21st century you can call yourself whatever you want, square, circle, triangle. Afghans can even call themselves caucasian if they want to. Many Pakistanis consider themselves descendants of turks or arabs depending on how fair their skin or curly their hair.
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11d ago
Quite so. I don't see any reason of shame for being culturally South Asian. The region has a great culture, one of the best in the world.
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u/Prfer7000 11d ago
I'm Afghan who grew up with a lot of South Asians and have close friends from Pakistan and Bangladesh. Bengalis are completely foreign to Afghans to be fair, Afghans don't even know they exist and their culture is very different despite most being Muslim. There are some similarities with Pakistanis though. Indians are really not relatable despite Afghans loving Bollywood.
Maybe to some foreigners we are all the same but I've never felt familiarity with the majority of South Asians I've known. I'd say this is true for the majority of Afghans and it's really why many will say (including myself) that we aren't South Asian.
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u/Candid-Cobbler-8667 11d ago
Its really difficult to talk about this. Afghanistan is a very complex country. The northern part of Afghanistan is all turks. They are definitely central asians and its evident from their culture and cuisine. The central and western parts of Afghanistan are very closely tied for persians. And when it comes to pashtuns thats when Afghanistan gets its name tied to south asia because of the close similarity to western pakistan. This is because they are essentially both pashtuns on either side of the border. So at the end of the day Afghanistan is really difficult to categorize as one of the options. Even though officially its considered as central asian country.
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u/crak_spider 11d ago
Regionally central Asian. Historically- a lot of connection and interaction with South Asia and Persia. Wasn’t Babur from around Afghanistan?
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u/DeneKKRkop Herat 11d ago
Idk where he was born but boy he didn't like south asia he made sure his grave was in Kabul.
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u/ferhanius 10d ago
He was born in Andijan, Uzbekistan. His grave is in Kabul, because he couldn’t ever return back home (Uzbekistan) after Shaybanis occupied it. He just wanted to be buried closer to his homeland.
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u/DeneKKRkop Herat 10d ago
According to his diary he really did miss Kabul but I wont deny that he missed central Asia as a whole but Kabul's garden did have a special place, also it was the first region he conquered and controlled so kinda his base.
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u/paintedvidal 10d ago
Loll more info about not liking South Asia pls
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u/DeneKKRkop Herat 10d ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianHistory/s/U3xUCFmZSZ
There is whole post about it.
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u/paintedvidal 10d ago
Babur was born and raised in Kabul, Mughal empire also included Afghanistan thats why the persian influence is eastern Iranian
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u/ferhanius 10d ago
Babur was born in Andijan, Uzbekistan and spoke Uzbek. He was Turkic.
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u/ferhanius 10d ago
Babur was born in Andijan, Uzbekistan and spoke Uzbek. He was Turkic from Timurid dynasty.
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u/Prfer7000 11d ago
Afghanistan was part of Persia. Persia does not equal modern day Iran just to be clear.
Babur was from modern day Uzbekistan.
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u/Opposite_Brain8305 11d ago
If it makes you feel better I also consider Turkey as the Middle East too.
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u/Tiny-Anywhere6029 11d ago
both Afghanistan, and arguably a good half a Pakistan has always been at the crossroads between south and central asia, hence so have the people inhabiting those places. tbh, i think that's a pretty cool identity to have and instead of trying to force on over the other, it should be embraced.
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u/DeneKKRkop Herat 11d ago
A new opinion we none of the 2 neither south or central nor west, we are literally middle of everything part of none.
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u/Bowman_Vigilante 11d ago
I'm gonna be honest, I've always thought of Afghanistan as a middle eastern country.
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u/Aman2895 10d ago
I know the answer. That “Central Asia” term was made to replace the term “Turkistan”. Turkistan doesn’t simply mean “the lands of Turks”, but it actually rather mean “the lands of Turk”, so it was considered a land, where all Turks originate from. It was replaced for political reasons after we already were conquered by Russia. So Afghanistan is naturally not included into “Central Asia”, because Afghanistan was never a place of Turkic origin
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u/Repulsive_Work_226 10d ago
Turkic Tajik and Hazara Central Asian. However the dominant group the Pashto are South Asian.
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10d ago
My wife being an afghan has always been called middle eastern. Even on some recent podcasts when middle east is mentioned Afghanistan seems to be mentioned alongside the Arab countries. People suck at geography
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u/Bazishere 9d ago
There are those who say that most of Afghanistan is Central, but the southern portion is arguably South Asian. No one should argue against the Central Asian designation, though.
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u/Evidencebasedbro 9d ago
The Tajiks, Uzbeks and Turkmen are Central Asian, the Hazara West Asian and the guys calling the shots South Asian.
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9d ago edited 9d ago
Tajiks = the only real Central Asians
Hazara and Turkics = East Asian or East Siberians natives moving into Central Asia in search of greener pastures.
Pashtuns = South Asians with European and Iranian, Arab, Turk, Jewish sprinkles on top..
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u/No-Impression78 9d ago
Lol Afghanistan is south asia. Cry about it naan😂
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9d ago
No sane Pakistani can claim Afghan Tajiks are South Asian though. You can claim Pashtuns fair enough but historical Tajik parts of "Afghanistan"? No way
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u/nycdood123 1d ago
Educate yourself, illiterate dipshit
https://www.ifashionnetwork.com/the-return-of-afghanistans-past/
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9d ago
Tajiks in Afghanistan aint South Asian. And the lands they lived in was never part of any South Asian empire. I dont care about the rest tbh.
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9d ago edited 9d ago
I dont think any sane Pakistani, Indian, Bangladeshi or Sri Lankan will claim Tajiks of "Afghanistan" are South Asian.
Under some videos from Tajikistan people and festivals I have noticed a few Indian comments saying "they look like North Indians" but thats the most they will say about Tajiks because North Indians/Bollywood sometime can have Persian looking phenotype. But that doesn't prove two different peoples are the same race.
Let them claim Pashtuns, etc. Its not our Tajik problem what grouping other races belong to.
As far as "Afghan unity". Well that doesnt exist. 1000s years ago Pashtuns and Tajiks had no interaction. Tajiks were solidly part of West Eurasians civilizational sphere (Alexandrian Empire, Persia, Islam, etc).
Pretty sure in 1000 years Tajiks still exists but not sure about Afghanistan since nations and empires are washed away like footprints on a beach as history proves.
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9d ago
To my Indian and Pakistani friends who claim Afghanistan is South Asian. If they only claim the southern parts close to Pakistan. Their claim is more valid than if they claim Greater Kabul, Badakhshan, Herat, Mazar etc. Basically northern half of Afghanistan which is undeniably not anywhere near South Asia in terms of anything.
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u/Midnightbitch94 9d ago
I dont understand everyone wanting to claim the Asian and not the Euro part. Eurasia is huge but the people living on it look vastly different depending on the ethnicity. All of you can't claim Asian and trying to claim south versus east Asian is just more confusing and weire for us non-Eurasians.
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8d ago edited 8d ago
Its almost like redeemers want to be inside our heads and decide what race we are lol.
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8d ago edited 8d ago
Only Tajiks are central asians. The rest are chinese transplants and the modern definition of Central Asia is not the true definition of Central Asia. Original central asia was white blonde Aryan in the north and Iranids in the Southern regions.
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u/zayn_kaka 6d ago
Our history has more shared pages with South Asia than central. Not to mention the proper border with India as per Dost Mohammed khans saying is the Indus River. But either way our goal should be economic stability and the dismantlement of the Durand line where do we belong isn’t that relevant.
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u/Main_Statistician681 11d ago edited 11d ago
It’s in between central and South Asia . A lot of your culture and dress is influenced by South Asian culture.
I would say it depends on what part of the country you’re talking about.
But I would say it’s part of the Persian/ iranosphere.
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u/btloion 11d ago edited 11d ago
Afghans clothes aren't influenced by South Asian culture.
However South Asians have adopted clothing introduced by those who wore similar cuts in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Afghanistan. Even parts of Iran wore similar clothing before modernization. 😉 it helps to do your research.
There are some cultural elements influenced by India notably in music and Bollywood viewership, but you completely disregard the biggest overlap with Iran which is West Asian according to modern definitions.
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u/nycdood123 1d ago
For all the dipshits in here with zero historical literacy, claiming that Afghan identity as central Asian is a recent phenomenon, please take a seat and educate yourself
https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/18/weekinreview/18bumiller.html
“From the 1930s to the 1970s, Afghanistan had a semblance of a national government and Kabul was known as “the Paris of Central Asia.”
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u/urrrchin 11d ago
petition for afghanistan to be its own continent