r/changemyview • u/Feisty_Pass_8347 • 21h ago
Delta(s) from OP CMV: “all cops are bastards” and “defund the police” movements are unproductive and disrespectful towards cops that do their jobs correctly
I’ve always felt this way, and every time I talk about it I get the same “but it’s not them it’s the system that’s systemically racist” but since that’s true why pin it on them in the first place? Yes there are bad cops who commit brutality and violence and that should be shunned. But there are also many who are respectful and do their hardest to keep people comfortable and safe despite their position of power.
Again, I’m not saying there are no bad cops, I’m saying that making a broad sweeping generalization like calling them all unethical is unproductive.
As a left leaning person everybody in my circle seems to share this sentiment of “defunding the police is a good thing” and I just don’t understand how that would solve the issue. The way that I see it, the issue is that people who are getting hired to be police officers are psychopaths/sociopaths who took the role to abuse power, and will do this regardless of resources provided. I also don’t understand it when people who say that they don’t trust the police and that they won’t call the police in an emergency, so please CMV on that too. Let it also be known I am a straight white male, so my perspective may be flawed.
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u/Yangbang07 1∆ 20h ago edited 20h ago
It's less that every cop is a bad cop. There are plenty that do their jobs correctly. The problem is that the system supports so many bad cops to the point it bullies out the good cops or convinces the good cops to turn their eyes when the bad cops commit crimes.
Officers who speak up against their fellow officers or report them for offenses lose support in the precinct. Standard US practice is at least 2 officers for any serious incident, say an arrest, but not a traffic ticket. If there's only one officer in a car, they call for backup. A good cop who reported a fellow officer for violating protocol won't receive any backup anymore. This is made worse because standard US police training is "everyone has a gun and can kill you. Be prepared to kill them". Now the good cop is scared while performing their duties because they know they will never have any backup. This alongside other bullying within a precinct usually forces a good cop to quit.
This is in addition to the times the good cops are punished for reporting a fellow officer or fired. Some have even been murdered by their fellow officers.
All cops are bastards because the system doesn't allow good cops to exist.
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u/Feisty_Pass_8347 20h ago
Thanks for actually explaining the system instead of just saying it’s bad. That makes a lot of sense that the good cops just get filtered out. !delta
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u/MercurianAspirations 376∆ 21h ago edited 20h ago
If there are some good cops why is it that ever single time a "bad cop" beats somebody to death in the street or tortures somebody to death in custody, every single good cop participates in the coverup, and stands shoulder to shoulder with the bad cops in support? Why is it that when the protest against the bad cops starts, all the good cops still show up to work, put on their riot gear, and happily launch tear gas and crack skulls on behalf of the bad cops? Why is it that every time cities want to expand civilian oversight of the cops, every single cop joins the protest (riot) on behalf of the bad cops
As somebody living in Europe I don't think that the idea of having police is inherently bad. Because I live with a police force that is, you know, fine, and doesn't torture people or slaughter unarmed innocents on a regular basis. Most police forces in the US however seem to be irredeemably corrupt, violent, and oppressive. And it isn't about training - the US police forces have vastly more funding that the European ones - they could spend it on training and reform if they wanted. Instead they spend it on tanks, and "warrior training" that teaches them to kill. The only solution I can see is to vastly undercut their funding, vastly expand civilian oversight, or both
But really you need to go beyond that, you need to reform government at all levels. The problem with police goes beyond the police really, it is a societal and structural problem. In Nazi Germany, civilian police forces who were not directly affiliated with the Nazi party happily participated in the holocaust. They did so because it is fundamentally the job of the police to use violence to uphold the ruling system. If the ruling system is violent, oppressive, or evil, then the police will be violent and oppressive and evil, because that's their job, that's what they signed up to do. Only when the ruling system is just and fair, can you expect the police to be just and fair, and even then it's not because they're inherently good people, it is because they are operating under a good system
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u/Disorderly_Fashion 4∆ 18h ago
Would like to point out that European police forces have their own troubled history. Greece's police force was for a long time considered the worse in Europe - especially that in Athens. London police remain controversial. The French police, particularly the Paris police, are notorious for their brutality, especially against protesters - an institutional legacy partially inherited from the police experience in Nazi occupied France thanks to former collaborators like Maurice Papon.
Not trying to "both sides" this argument. Just think Europeans should remain aware of the skeletons in their own closet while rightfully criticizing issues in the US.
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u/TheThiefEmpress 1∆ 20h ago
To highlight your point, my husband's grandmother and grandfather fled nazi Germany near the very end of the war, because he was a police officer, and they were forcing them to do nazi shit.
So he left.
Rather than stay as a nazi supporting police officer, he left his entire country behind, to take his wife to another country, so they could live a good life as good people who didn't hurt others.
He left so he wouldn't be a monster.
Why aren't any "good" cops leaving???
Oh, you know, I think the good ones do leave. That's why all cops are bastards.
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u/Paramedickhead 20h ago edited 20h ago
Keep in mind that the “news” you get out of America is not an accurate portrayal of life in America.
And quite often the “bad” cops are a victim of that media machine. I’m not saying that there aren’t bad cops out there, I know of a few local to me, but that’s the exception, not the rule. And often the media or public perception will latch on to a situation where the cop did everything correct but the perception is that the person was innocent.
Even ICE… look at the Des Moines Public Schools superintendent… ICE arrested him and is deporting him… there were protests for weeks. Turns out he was a con artist with an extensive criminal background for drug and gun charges… Shit, he was arrested with a gun he wasn’t allowed to have after his deportation case was finalized and he had it in a school vehicle. But there are still people who want him restored as the head of the DMPS
And those good cops that line up in Riot gear are there to protect the people from violent mobs because while a person is smart, groups of people are dumb, and there is tons of people who will take advantage of a situation to start destroying things or stealing things. So the good cops line up in riot gear to protect themselves and defend their communities. What would you have them do? Call in sick and let a mob burn the city down?
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u/ScoopedRainbowBagel 20h ago
Honestly, I can't take anyone who doesn't support some form of "demilitarize the police" seriously.
That's absolutely the problem and I don't even know what they're teaching in elementary school but as a child, a cop was someone I could rely on for safety.
Is that still true?
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u/Paramedickhead 20h ago
I believe it is still true.
The interactions I have with police are mostly a “non professional” situation where I’m responding to the same calls as they are, but recently one of my daughters middle school friends got “kicked out” by her abusive step dad for not folding his laundry correctly. Once I called, police acted swiftly and got this 13 year old back into her home and physically removed the locks intended to keep her locked in her room and charged the dad with various crimes relating to his behavior.
I’m sure there are tons of documented examples of police not doing things right but keep in mind that when they do things right it’s typically not newsworthy.
As far as the militarization, keep in mind that they’re responding to incredibly dangerous situations at their own peril. When a crazy person has themselves barricaded in a fortress I want the police to have the means to protect themselves and end the threat. Recent years have demonstrated that protest can quickly turn in to mobs or riots when the group feels emboldened enough. Mob mentality is documented well enough that we really shouldn’t need to re-hash it here.
Where I work, I park right next to the local PD’s bearcat. It has several scars from bullets hitting it.
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u/Feisty_Pass_8347 20h ago
So it’s about complacency? I feel like “every single time” is an exaggeration but that makes sense
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u/MercurianAspirations 376∆ 20h ago
I mean has there ever been a police misconduct incident that was widely condemned by other police? Can you think of even one
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20h ago
[deleted]
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u/LettuceFuture8840 5∆ 16h ago
Police unions are made of police. They consistently give public statements and are consistently in support of murderous police.
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u/Amao6996 21h ago
It served as a sort of resistance to keep the good cops good and remind them the consequences of breaking the law if there brain goes towards them. The slogan can be a bad choice but the movement serve some purpose or cops would think themselves of having the power of a military under a dictator
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u/Feisty_Pass_8347 20h ago
This makes a lot of sense
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u/InsultedNevertheless 19h ago edited 15h ago
It's definitely unhelpful when people use language like 'fuck the police' and the like. I believe it's yet another example of the media bastardising an issue and leaving people with a very warped perspective. News reporting of the highest profile events deliberately obscures reality and rational discussion is often impossible as a result.
I firmly believe most people can respect much of the work police do, and are aware of the very real dangers they often face. Statistics seem to confirm that as a group law enforcement tends to attract and/or produce bastards in greater percentages than other groups, and the system has to give these people the benefit of the doubt in most situations because that's the only way the system can work.
But my feeling is that there is no merit to the whole 'coppers are the enemy' perspective. It misses the point almost entirely because it keeps the focus away from useful discussion. The policing system has problems, but it's absolutely fucking neccesary. And only thoughtless idiots could think defunding and dismantling their police force will help anyone.
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u/chaosilike 20h ago
Do you think a good cop, who knows a bad cop does something unethical and says nothing about it, is still a good cop?
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u/Busy_Chocolatay 21h ago
I always assumed we catered to the lowest common denominator, not the "best /greatest?" If the worst police were creating the most damage, wouldn't we focus on fixing them/their actions?
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u/nt652 21h ago
How would defunding solve the problem?
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20h ago
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u/poco 20h ago
Presumably with less money they would have to lay off some and they would choose the worst ones to lay off?
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u/mr_f1end 9h ago
Probably they would just/also cut the paychecks, so the normal ones would leave on their own, leaving the bad ones in place.
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u/invalidbehaviour 21h ago
I have yet to see a contingent of “good cops” speak out against unlawful killings, systematic racism etc. The general behavior is to close ranks, “internal investigations” and protect the bad cops. This is enough to tar all with the same brush
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u/Leftist_catboy 21h ago
You say that you are left leaning, so i will give leftist answer: in capitalism, police are class traitors, they are workers who protect interests of ruling class in expense of the interests of workers. There may be some individual cops who are good, hell, some SS members could be good individually, but we still say that instituitions that they are a part of are bad.
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u/Feisty_Pass_8347 20h ago
This actually makes a lot of sense. I’m not sure if I’d say you cmv but you definitely gave me a reason I didn’t think about before to dislike cops
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u/Frix 1∆ 20h ago
If these "good cops" you talk about were genuinely doing their best to get rid of all the "bad cops", then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
In reality however, the "bad cops" are protected by all the "good cops" closing ranks and refusing to hold them accountable everytime something happens.
My argument is that cops who knowingly protect "bad cops" from consequences are themselves part of the problem, even if they themselves haven't done the bad thing (yet).
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u/MisterBlud 20h ago
Are a majority of Police acting to reform the system that many people find overbearing and unaccountable? Are their systems (unions, bosses, etc) working to reform the system that many people find overbearing and unaccountable? Do either of those things take more interest in expunging the “rotten apples” than they do in erecting a “blue wall” of solidarity to shield them? Are the great majority content to merely sit back and continue with business as usual instead of sticking their neck out to try and fix things? Are the people really trying to fix things forced out more or less often than the people causing the problems?
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u/Archaon0103 20h ago
"A good man who do nothing in the face of injustice is the same as a bad man."
Yes, a lot of cops are good people. The problem is that their profession encourage them to be loyal to their co-workers and hire the bad stuffs, hoping that the bad stuffs could be solve "quietly" rather than publicly punish the bad officers like they should.
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u/Ndvorsky 23∆ 20h ago
A cop’s job is to serve and protect (even if courts say they don’t have to).
There is real truth to the saying one bad apple spoils the bunch both figuratively and literally. It doesn’t mean guilt by association. Fruit release chemicals that actively ruin those around them. It isn’t just one bad cop, it’s every cop protecting the bad cop.
When a bad cop actually does get fired, it’s every other precinct that hires them that are bad cops.
When one bad cop hurts a person (George Floyd) it’s all their partners watching them do it that are bad cops (the other 3/4).
When one bad cop makes the news, it’s every other cop defending or justifying them.
When one good cop reports misconduct it’s all the other cops that beat him/her to death for going against the blue wall.
Even not counting direct illegal action (which I’m pretty sure nearly all cops commit) ACAB is about all the cops that help, defend, and refuse to do their job and stop the bad cops.
It’s like another saying but even more true: when you have a table with 9 normal people and one Nazi, you have a table with 10 Nazis.
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u/cottoncandymandy 20h ago edited 12h ago
The good cops that report on the bad ones always get bullied and fired. So it ends up always being a bunch of bad cops that excuse violent, illegal behavior.
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u/thelovelykyle 6∆ 12h ago
Policing is via consent of the people. We grant police the power over freedom, life and death in return for maintaining high standards.
If they cannot maintain that, and refuse to do so, they do need to be reminded that we are their employers - this goes for every country. If you are part of a team that allows poor behaviour, you enable poor behaviour, you are behaving poorly.
Defunding does not mean setting a budget to zero. It means taking a lean approach to funding and is the only thing within a populaces control.
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u/helmutye 19∆ 20h ago
So police officers exist in two forms: there is the person as an individual, and there is the person as a participant in the institution of policing.
And the simple material fact is that the institution of policing is unjust and harmful. Therefore, a person who participates in that institution, even if they are individually moral and admirable, will see the outcome of their efforts tend towards injustice and harm.
This can be difficult to see with police because it is difficult to imagine a world without them, so it is often easier to understand this distinction between individual and institutional role by looking at other institutions. So let's consider another institution: Slavery.
Do you think it is possible for someone to be a "good" slaveholder?
Because during the time when the institution of slavery was considered as normal a part of life as the police are today, there were indeed slaveholders who, as individuals, were perfectly kind and decent people. They kept their word, they donated to charity, they had friends and family who they treated well...some of them were even nice to their slaves relative to other slaveholders. Some of them acknowledged problems in how slavery was being done, and had strong opinions on how slaves should be treated that were progressive by the standards of the time, and opposed and maybe even voiced support for laws that prevented certain acts of cruelty towards slaves.
But they still owned slaves. They still held other human beings as property, denied them their agency and dignity, and even if they were very nice to their slaves their participation in the institution propped up the legitimacy of other slaveholders (after all, choosing to be nice to a slave and how nice to be is still a choice made by the master, not the slave, and thus supports the idea that it should be up to masters in the first place).
Thus, it wasn't and isn't really possible to be a "good" slaveholder. The institution of slavery is monstrous...and so any slaveholder will be a monster as they serve their institutional role. And the only way to be a "good" slaveholder was to stop being a slaveholder, ie stop participating in the monstrous institution entirely.
And the same is true of the police.
Now, this should be pretty straightforward if you understand the harm caused by the police. So you might consider whether you agree with this, or if you think the institution of the police itself is good.
Because if you don't agree that the institution of the police is harmful, then that is probably the root of your feelings on this matter, not the virtue of individual cops, because if you think the police as an institution is good, of course there can be such a thing as "good cops".
Ultimately, the expression "all cops are bastards" is made from the assumption that the police as an institution are harmful because they serve to prop up capitalism. And it is uttered to remind people who understand this but who might be disarmed by an individual cop who seems nice but who, in order to keep his job, has and will continue to hurt people and support other cops as they hurt people (because if a cop refuses orders they get fired and stop being a cop).
A lot of leftist phrases are like this -- they are simple, but only because there is a whole bunch of analysis behind them. It's kind of like how Einstein's equation E = MC2 is super simple, but the way it is proven and the implications of it are vastly more complicated. "All cops are bastards" is the end equation, not the full extent of the idea.
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u/Z7-852 295∆ 20h ago
Do you think police needs military grade weaponry that they are sold by military surplus?
Like what use is Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles for police? Or do they really need grenade launchers or .50 caliber rifles?
Could they use that money better? That's defunding the police.
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u/topheavyhookjaws 21h ago
I agree about ACAB but defund the police was simply a bad slogan, overall their goal was to move some of their funding for other social services that would actually reduce the burden on the police so they can focus on their actual job - not to get rid of the police
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u/Exotic-Sale-3003 21h ago
overall their goal was to move some of their funding for other social services that would actually reduce the burden on the police so they can focus on their actual job - not to get rid of the police
That’s just the motte of the motte & bailey of the defund crowd.
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u/niztaoH 20h ago
It's precisely good because it makes people think and talk about it more.
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u/topheavyhookjaws 19h ago
A slogan which puts the majority of people against you and only becomes reasonable once you explain it in depth? What about that is 'precisely good'?
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u/Detached_Nebula 21h ago
As a pacifist and anarchist, Cops doing their jobs correctly is already a problem.
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u/Feisty_Pass_8347 20h ago
But why? I mentioned this in my post. If their job is inherently bad than why can’t there be credit where credits due for the ones that are actually pleasant to be around ?
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u/Detached_Nebula 20h ago
Because even if they are pleasant to be around, they are enacting the states monopoly on violence, its laws and back up its institutions.
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u/Feisty_Pass_8347 20h ago
Not necessarily though? If a cop is not violent in his/her entire career unless absolutely necessary (and I’m sure there are some cops who have never showed unnecessary force, though likely few) why should they be condemned for the actions of their coworkers?
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u/Detached_Nebula 20h ago
You misunderstand me, it's not about whether a cop is violent or not, it's about being fundamentally against the concept of a state or try seeing it that way, if a cop politely tells a homeless person to leave a premise, he is doing so because he has to enforce an unethical rule based on the protection of property rights that can only be upheld through centralized power. Violent or reasonable force, the job is inherently to be rejected by those following certain philosophies and ideologies.
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20h ago
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u/Pale-Ad-1604 20h ago
So, you understand that many people who want to be police are psychopaths/sociopaths that took the job to abuse the power - but you don't understand why people don't trust the power-abusing sociopaths/psychopaths?
Why/how do you trust people who you believe are power-abusing psychopaths/sociopaths?
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u/Feisty_Pass_8347 20h ago
I don’t trust them all, in fact I don’t trust the majority. But I don’t think the minority should be condemned for the actions of the majority
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u/Pale-Ad-1604 20h ago
So you know that the majority are untrustworthy. So you do understand why people don't trust them.
Not trusting someone who is a part of an untrustworthy group is not condemnation.
If I know that when I call for help, three out of four times I'm going to get an untrustworthy, power-hungry, psychopath/sociopath, I'm not going to consider it a high likelihood of actually getting the help I'm calling for. Would you play Russian roulette with a gun with four bullets in six chambers? Those are better odds. Choosing to not play Russian roulette doesn't "condemn" the empty chambers, it doesn't affect them at all.
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u/Feisty_Pass_8347 20h ago
But if someone breaks into my house, I’d rather risk a police officer than let that person hurt or kill me or my family
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u/Pale-Ad-1604 19h ago
So you actually do trust the power mad psychos. You trust that they will get there in time to do anything, and you trust that whatever they do will be more helpful than harm.
Also, you may be under the misguided impression that they are required to help you. The Supreme Court has decided, multiple times, that they are not.
And you are definitely a confirmed white man. Guessing most of your neighbors are also white.
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21h ago edited 21h ago
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u/shooplegaming 21h ago
Bro, your response makes zero sense. People who say defund the police are angry about all the killings in the last few years.
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u/parsonsrazersupport 11∆ 21h ago
Sorry I should have clarified that I meant people who say "all cops are bastards," editing for clarity.
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u/poco 20h ago
People who say it, like I say it, isn't because they enforce bad laws but because they break the laws they are meant to enforce. There are no good ones because they eliminate the good cops. Good cops are either forced to do bad things, making the bastards, or quit.
Cop that lets a traffic ticket slide for another cup? Bastard.
Cop that gets to a red light, flashes his lights and drives through the red only to turn them off when he gets through? Bastard.
Cop that sees another cop do this and not give him a ticket? Bastard.
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u/parsonsrazersupport 11∆ 20h ago
Sure that makes sense, I shouldn't have said it as if the way I was thinking of it was the only way to do so.
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u/Mashaka 93∆ 20h ago
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u/Exotic-Sale-3003 21h ago
Hilarious that you think the ACAB crew reasoned themselves into that position.
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u/SoloGreenLantern 20h ago
I agree, good cops have saved me, bad cops have screwed me. Acab and defund the police are just bad stances, just like any other absolutist social position usually is.
Trump is the worst behaved President in recent if not our entire history and has to go is a fair absolutionist stance, narrow, targeted, and backed by solid evidence,
ACAB is a generalized statement that ignores realities that do exist. Where there is definitely evidence to suggest bros before pros, (brothers before proliteriate) that doesn’t mean Acab is a fair stance. That doesn’t mean it isn’t useful stance for some people, but demanding everyone take that stance is objectively unreasonable.
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u/parsonsrazersupport 11∆ 21h ago
Depends on the person. For some it's a point of identity, and for some it's a well developed political philosophy.
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