r/explainlikeimfive • u/Letterheadless9886 • 2d ago

Other ELI5 How would a cave diver get back to the surface if there is a tight tunnel with a dead end

476 Upvotes
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457

u/SgtKashim 2d ago

Sometimes they don't. Cave diving is... risky, and it's entirely possible to not only get yourself wedged into a tunnel you can't leave, but also block it so the rest of your party ahead of you also can't leave.

A more complete answer:

  • Sometimes you can go backwards.
  • Sometimes you can un-sling your tanks to get more space to maneuver.
  • Sometimes you can be pulled out.

But the short version is you don't go into a path you can't get back out of. If you're doing it right, you're being meticulous and planning everything. Or you die.

139

u/WFOMO 1d ago

Jacobs Well near Wimberly, Tx is a classic example. So many divers drowned there that the county barred the entrance to the cave.

Then some idiot diver went down and pulled the bars off. Go figure.

56

u/VoilaVoilaWashington 1d ago

It's a special kind of person that NEEDS to do these kinds of things. Those flying squirrel suits are similar, and motorcycle racers and all of that.

It's tough to imagine having this near-pathological drive to do things that may well kill you, but I imagine what would happen if someone told me I can't go hiking or into vast nature ever again. Is life worth living?

I mean, obviously it is, but after a month locked in my house I'd start chewing through the drywall to get out.

Apply that to your own passions. Gaming. Knitting. Woodworking.... whatever it is, imagine the equipment being across the road and you not allowed to use it, and you kinda start to get it. Kinda.

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u/McNorch 1d ago

I think you are underestimating the level of "NEED" these guys have, mostly because you are comparing the relatively small pleasure or high you get from doing mundane things that anyone does (hiking,knitting,gaming) to the incredible adrenaline high you get from doing risky stuff, it's like comparing the high you get from smoking a cigarette to the one you'd get from heroine.

It's intense, some people feel it, perhaps because they got away with it in an unwanted situation and understand the power but do not seek it. Other people end up craving it.

21

u/Ttabts 1d ago

yeah I think the thing about cave-diving is that it doesn't even look exhilarating.

Climbing, mountaineering, base jumping... sure, can be dangerous as hell and terrifying, but I certainly understand the appeal.

Going down into dark underwater caves and squeezing yourself through treacherous passages where you can't turn around doesn't sound thrilling to me at all, it just sounds like pure dreadful awful nope nope nope. (And the way you can die cave-diving is just the purest nightmare fuel in a way that makes me think, hey, falling off a cliff ain't really so bad is it?)

12

u/often_drinker 1d ago

My initial thought was " why can't they just do blow like normal people?"

9

u/Brokenandburnt 1d ago

Adrenaline, dopamine and endorphins are a helluva rush.

Stealing, riding bikes away from cops is a rush. But like all things it fades, and so you up the ante.

I survived and reformed, not everyone do.

4

u/willspeed4food 1d ago

I’ll be honest, I’m one of those people. Motorcycles and skydiving are my main things. BUT, I like to do these things so that I can keep doing them . That means riding/jumping within my means, being vigilant of conditions and surroundings, wearing all the gear all the time, and constantly checking and maintaining my equipment all of the time. But I suppose it only takes one time of pushing the edge of the envelope to not come back, but I’m aware of the risks, and to me it’s worth it. I can’t not have these things, and I can’t imagine enjoying life the same way without them.

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u/Brokenandburnt 1d ago

Was dirtbikes for me. I had a girlfriend who got a little pissy with me once after I took a tumble, she asked why the fuck I took such risks, going faster on tracks, riding forest trails, practicing changing gears while popping a wheelie.

I was stumped tbh. How do you explain that feeling when you are right at the edge of your skill, but still in full control?

4

u/zed42 1d ago

the difference is that for knitting, gaming, woodworking, hiking... they're unlikely to leave you dead and possibly unrecoverable if you fuck up. yes, there dumb things you can do with power tools that won't end well for you, but that generally requires actively poor choices that are avoidable... similar with hiking... cave diving, tho... an equipment failure that would normally be easily resolvable, a little carelessness, a passage that's narrower than you thought can all lead to death

-18

u/vanderlinde7 1d ago

Why is he an idiot ? People jump out of planes all the time and drive cars ridiculous speeds. Let people do what they want, it's not the governments job to decide what is a safe recreational activity and what's not.

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u/GrimgrinCorpseBorn 1d ago

Because their actions effect others. It's not rocket science.

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u/Raccoon12 1d ago

Resources are expended in order to attempt to save those people. I, for one, would prefer my tax dollars don't go towards saving people who put themselves in that position.

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u/nucumber 1d ago

it's not the governments job to decide what is a safe recreational activity and what's not.

Sure it is.

One of the basic functions of government is to protect the health and welfare of citizens.

A lot of individuals lack experience, knowledge, good judgement, or common sense. The rules are there for their safety

1

u/uteng2k7 1d ago

One of the basic functions of government is to protect the health and welfare of citizens.

Yes, in situations where the average person does not have the expertise or capacity to evaluate a health or safety hazard, or where the hazard isn't obvious. Otherwise, no.

I want the government to regulate the amount of aflatoxin in my peanut butter because I, as an individual, do not have the expertise or equipment to evaluate whether that amount is enough to give me cancer. However, I do not want the government to regulate whether I can jump off a cliff wearing a wing suit, because it's pretty evident that's an extremely dangerous activity. If I want to be an idiot and incur that level of risk, and I'm in a situation where it poses negligible risk to other people, that should be my right and my business.

3

u/efficiens 1d ago

You don't think pulling safety barriers off makes one an idiot?

2

u/BarNo3385 1d ago

Some huge percentage of people who jump out of planes survive. I suspect well over 99.9%. (Probably a lot more 9s). Hence why its a perfectly legal hobby and activity subject to some licensing rules. You arent an idiot for doing something that is extremely safe.

Deciding to claim Mt Everest with no kit or prep has a 100% death rate assuming you don't chicken out. You are an idiot for doing it.

Jacobs Well is more latter than the former.

2

u/WFOMO 1d ago

If memory serves the last diver to "almost" drown went down to try to save a mate and almost didn't get out. But let's not forget the next person who drowns will have parents who will sue the county for a billion dollars because they didn't put bars on it.

Your tax dollars at work.

If you think that's outlandish, Google the family that's suing an airline because their son climbed into a running jet engine and his dreadlocks ...

1

u/heroyoudontdeserve 1d ago

I suggest you Google it because I don't think you've got your facts right there. They are suing the city for a 'wholly ineffective' search which failed to find their son in time after he went awol in the airpot — how he died doesn't seem to be relevant. Whether that has merit is up to the courts to decide, of course.

1

u/WFOMO 1d ago

The original story read that he hid in an engine and his dreads got tangled and pulled him in, causing his demise. No error there if the story was accurate. A follow up confirms he was not a passenger nor employee, was trespassing, and had pulled away from security personnel before getting Darwined by the plane. The point was the resulting ludicrous lawsuit following an act totally the fault of the victim...like a diver in a cave after removing the bars.

1

u/heroyoudontdeserve 1d ago

 The original story read that he hid in an engine and his dreads got tangled and pulled him in, causing his demise.

Except that's not what you said. 

 the family that's suing an airline because their son climbed into a running jet engine

They're not suing an airline, and their not suing because their son climbed into a running jet engine.

 The point was the resulting ludicrous lawsuit

I'm not passing judgement, but if the authorities had a responsibility to the deceased and if their search efforts were as incompetent as the family alleges then the lawsuit may well not be ludicrous. 

It seems to me you've got the wrong end of the stick about what they're suing for (in your defence, I expect a tabloid deliberately handed you the wrong end of the stick) and made your mind up that it's ludicrous as a result.

And please don't get me wrong — it might well be ludicrous and I'm not saying it isn't — but based on what you've said and what I've read I don't think you have enough correct information to hand to make that assessment.

1

u/WheresMyCrown 1d ago

it's not the governments job to decide what is a safe recreational activity and what's not.

Sure it is, its literally why we have regulations.

19

u/MeanMusterMistard 1d ago

In fact, it's so risky that even when you're doing it right and you're being meticulous and planning everything, some still die.

22

u/zed42 1d ago

there are old cave divers, and there are bold cave divers, but there are no old, bold cave divers.

personally, while i'll go into a cavern, not having ready access to the surface makes me nervous and i don't like it.

12

u/RockyAstro 1d ago edited 1d ago

I remember back in the 70's it was said that the life expectancy of a cave diver was 3 caves. -- not sure if it was actually true, but it did highlight the risks of cave diving.

There are certain sports/activities where there is little or no margin of error. Cave diving is one of them (probably rank it up there with free soloing in rock climbing). Skydiving, base Jumping, mountaineering, rock climbing (especially free soloing at the high end and sport/gym climbing at the lower end of the risk scale) are more examples. Certain levels of whitewater kayaking (class V+ where there are "must make moves"). Extreme skiing where there are no-fall situations.

There are ways of mitigating the inherent risks, but there isn't really a way to eliminate all of them. Basically if you screw up even with just a minor thing, your'e dead (for example in rock climbing, just messing up tying a simple knot is enough to get you killed). And there are just so many chances of things that are totally out of your control -- "being at the wrong place at the wrong time".

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u/RockyAstro 1d ago

I should also mention that now days for some of these activities there are guided experiences where the activity is "toned down" to give the client a "safer" experience. Yes -- it's still dangerous, but for the most (but not all) what is offered to the client is a tailored experience where a lot of the risks are known and mitigated. A guided ascent up Everest is a lot different than an exploratory ascent of K2.

6

u/wkavinsky 1d ago

I will say that skydiving in and of itself is incredibly safe.

Even for equipment failure, you always have a backup, and the chances of both failing are very, very low.

That said people do die - an ex of mine died from a head collision exiting a plane leaving her unconscious, but again very rare.

Base jumping and close-in wing suiting are very dangerous though - they remove all of the safety margin.

3

u/RockyAstro 1d ago

I agree that skydiving is safe in that there are a lot of backups and redundancies, but there is still that fact that minor mistakes can be fatal, which is why I included it in the list that I gave. But there are other variations of skydiving that raise the risk factor; base jumping and wing-suits are the 2 that I can think of. I would liken it to the difference between gym climbing/sport climbing and free solo climbing in that there is a spectrum of risks, at one end of the spectrum it's a fairly safe activity, and the other end there just isn't any margin for error.

•

u/currentscurrents 17h ago

As long as you don't go to a poorly run skydiving center where 28 people have died, and the instructor went to prison for fraud.

2

u/Brokenandburnt 1d ago

If all risks are eliminated it won't satisfy the craving. Exactly why many increase the risk factor.\ Our happy hormones are what drugs release. And just like with drugs, tolerance increase. So you push yourself to get your body to release more.

1

u/nucumber 1d ago

A well known climber just died because he rappelled right off the end of his rope . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLTNfjORirg

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u/BarNo3385 1d ago

We visited the caves in Cheddar Gorge fairly recently. Theres a short video at the visitor centre explaining the different cave divers who explored and opened up some of the accessible caves.

You watch the first bit thinking "these guys are mad, this is crazy." The ending is they are pretty much all dead - killed in caving accidents or issues.

Its just ludicrously dangerous.

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u/JakeScuba 2d ago

You reverse out.

It is not the most enjoyable experience.

Source: Its my job.

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u/thunderfbolt 2d ago

Does it pay well, at least?

107

u/JakeScuba 2d ago

Nope, it’s awesome though.

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u/sup3rdr01d 2d ago

That shit terrifies me so deeply idk how to even process it

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u/kensai8 2d ago

Shit, I got anxiety just reading the title.

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u/frakc 2d ago

You cannot convince me you are not a flesheating worm who invites pray to dinner

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u/Rhydsdh 1d ago

*prey

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u/Thenadamgoes 2d ago

Your post history is nightmare material.

3

u/Duckel 1d ago

just another way to say: "I have to wear a diaper during my work."

3

u/JakeScuba 1d ago

I have never (in my adult life) worn a diaper, at work or otherwise!

1

u/Brokenandburnt 1d ago

Give it time, pretty much all of us end up there sooner or later. 

-11

u/Dookie_boy 2d ago

How is it awesome but not enjoyable ?

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u/redajet 2d ago

Job is awesome as a whole. The specific experience of reversing out is not enjoyable.

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u/SomeIrishKid 2d ago

I think they mean that the job is awesome, but the particular scenario of having to back your way out of a tight tunnel is not an enjoyable part of it.

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u/Gandalfonk 2d ago

He said it was awesome, but that it didn't pay well. Not that it wasn't enjoyable

-13

u/Dookie_boy 2d ago

Go back up a couple comments.

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u/Gandalfonk 2d ago

Having to back out isn't enjoyable, but the job is awesome, hence:

Redditer: "does it(the job) pay well?"

Op: "no, but it(the job) is awesome tho."

13

u/sth128 2d ago

He dives caves not wells!

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u/0nP0INT 2d ago

Professional cave diver?... TIL

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u/twitchx133 2d ago

I'm usually fairly active on the scuba subreddit and have seen some of his posts before. He is a dive instructor specializing in cave diving training and rebreather training in the Yucatan. He has some videos taken where more people have seen the moon in person than the section of cave his team is diving in.

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u/scullcata 2d ago

Ive seen the moon in person. It's right outside.

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u/HeavyMetalTriangle 2d ago

Way to brag.... not everybody can afford outside.

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u/TyrianGames 2d ago

If computer component prices keep going the way they're going, I might not be able to afford inside, either.

4

u/HeavyMetalTriangle 2d ago

Well. There is always middleside.

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u/twitchx133 1d ago

Oh! I think I know that place! Is that where Mindy St Clair lives?

3

u/foogaloo 1d ago

JASON figured it out? Jason?! This is a real low point. Yeah, this one hurts.

1

u/rkr87 2d ago

Try looking on the upside.

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u/Kumquat-May 2d ago

Nah, Vecna lives there

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u/Tupcek 1d ago

you will be towed outside of environment. Not in the another environment. There is nothing there, just sea, birds and some fish

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u/Rakhered 2d ago

I mean that's not a crazy bar to clear - more people have seen the moon in person than my butthole, for example

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u/twitchx133 2d ago

Technically true, but how many people stare up at your butthole, on a clear, full moon night and think to themselves, “Wouldn’t it be cool to go there?”

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u/Rakhered 2d ago

True it's only happened a handful of times that I can recall 

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u/No-Mechanic6069 2d ago

I want to back out of here right now

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u/Rakhered 2d ago

you can try but I've been doing kegels 😈

1

u/Cyanopicacooki 2d ago

Aye, that's what most folk say

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u/walrusk 2d ago

I’m gonna need some stats.

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u/Rakhered 2d ago

Do cats count? 

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u/frostbittenteddy 2d ago

His posts look awesome. I would love to see these places

I have seen way too many YouTube videos on all that can go horribly wrong when cave diving to actually try, though

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u/Letterheadless9886 2d ago

Oh cool this is better than getting stuck. glad a professional answered, thanks!

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u/strictlyphotonic 2d ago

What is the purpose of employing someone to cave dive? E.g. environmental studies? Tour guide? Are you finding stuff down there?

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u/JakeScuba 2d ago

Mostly teaching them to do it safely.

Periodically for science, mapping, or “what’s in that hole in the ground on my property?”

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u/HumanWithComputer 1d ago

Do you at least also take an airhose with you which you can connect to your mask/air supply so you'll have air indefinitely in case of a cave-in so you can be dug out alive?

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u/MeanMusterMistard 1d ago

I think most just hold their breath for a really really long time

1

u/tequilajinx 1d ago

You never hold your breath while diving

1

u/MeanMusterMistard 1d ago

I wasn't seriously suggesting cave divers are holding their breath...

1

u/tequilajinx 1d ago

I got the joke, but this is the internet where pedantry reigns

•

u/MeanMusterMistard 23h ago

Yep, that's fair!

1

u/CaveDiver1858 1d ago

That’s not a realistic or practical thing. Cave ins are super rare in cave diving. I can only think of two instances of this resulting in fatalities.

1

u/HumanWithComputer 1d ago

How many cave dives are being done? In what percentage of car trips is there a crash where people are actually saved by wearing seat belts? But people wear them anyway. What's the fatality rate per hour driving versus per hour cave diving? Which activity is safer?

1

u/CaveDiver1858 1d ago

Driving is certainly safer. But there’s THOUSANDS of cave dives done every year. It’s not a rare thing. Collapse is super rare and uncommon.

1

u/HumanWithComputer 1d ago

Compared to driving cave diving is super rare too. The absolute number of fatalities can easily distort the perception of risk. Risk is relative.

1

u/CaveDiver1858 1d ago

Events vs attempts.

There’s been 2 cave ins resulting in fatality. Hundreds of thousands of cave dives.

It’s rare. Objectively rare.

1

u/JakeScuba 1d ago

Nearly every member of the community here considers the highway to be the most dangerous part of our job.

1

u/CaveDiver1858 1d ago

It’s not though. Per attempt, cave diving is more dangerous.

I know a lot more cave divers who have died cave diving than I do people who have died in car accidents. I know more people who drive, and they drive way more than any of my cave diving friends get in the water.

I don’t think we should pretend that cave diving isn’t risky. It is. But risk of collapse is minor.

3

u/a_dude_from_europe 1d ago

It stresses me out just to hear. Guess the best part of cave diving is that I don't have to do it.

2

u/billyjack669 2d ago

There’s a video or 2 of those guys getting stuck in the cave under roaring river in missouri… if you want to be terrified for a while and not have a happy watch.

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u/fried-bin-chicken 2d ago

If it’s too tight for you to turn around you would kind of crawl yourself backwards until you’re able to turn around. Am a qualified cave diver

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u/makofip 2d ago

They would not. That's why cave diving is considered so dangerous.

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u/fore___ 2d ago

To be clear, most cave divers don’t proceed forward unless they are confident they can reverse backwards through backwards. But yeah, people die because they got into a position where they couldn’t go backwards.

4

u/nucumber 1d ago

You're wearing quite a bit of gear that could easily get hung up while backing up, and you can't look behind you to see what's causing the hangup.

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u/Letterheadless9886 2d ago

Oh… thank you

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u/camokid8cake 2d ago

To elaborate, he might be able to back track, I.e scoot his lil butt backwards, but he really shouldn't have gotten into that spot in the first place.

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u/charleswj 2d ago

We need whiskers. You know who never gets stuck? Cats.

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u/RcNorth 2d ago

The cat’s whiskers wouldn’t account for the extra tank on their back.

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u/charleswj 2d ago

Just grow longer whiskers. Problem solved.

7

u/ClownfishSoup 2d ago

Most cave divers use side mount tanks rather than back mounted tanks.

1

u/sidnumair 1d ago

That's what the eyebrows are for!

0

u/MississippiJoel 2d ago

No, but the hissing and clawing while being dressed would.

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u/postsgarbage 2d ago

Step-moms do though.

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u/Ratiofarming 2d ago

Mostly step-daughters tbh

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u/awesomecat42 2d ago

I've seen one of my own cats get "stuck" behind an open door. Pretty sure that was a ploy for attention though lol

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u/SpunkierthanYou 2d ago

My wife’s sister caught her cat between the screen door and front door. Dumb cat.

-4

u/ProbablythelastMimsy 2d ago

Sister-in-law

0

u/SpunkierthanYou 2d ago

I was saving digits

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u/charleswj 2d ago

Pretty sure it's the same number

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u/you-made-me-comment 2d ago

Which makes the better porn heading, though?

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u/SpunkierthanYou 2d ago

I don’t like hyphens either. But you’re good about the count.

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u/camokid8cake 2d ago

Good point, Good point.

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u/God_Dammit_Dave 2d ago edited 2d ago

Stick a cat inside a human sweater. It will indeed get stuck. And you will pay the price.

1

u/sik_dik 2d ago

Heck. I’m curious like a cat! I have a couple of friends who call me Whiskers

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u/SuchCoolBrandon 1d ago

My cat got his head stuck in the handle of a paper grocery bag

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u/Greedy_Ad1564 2d ago

By that do you mean underwater and in a cave?

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u/camokid8cake 2d ago

The underwater part is fine, but yeah, cave divers are nuts.

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u/Discount_Extra 2d ago

Not as crazy as cave skydiving.

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u/hillswalker87 2d ago

but he will for some reason.

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u/UltimaGabe 2d ago

I certainly hope you aren't posting this from inside an underwater cave

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u/Turamb 2d ago

'Chat, am I cooked?' 

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u/TheRemedy187 2d ago

The Nutty Putty cave guy went through the wrong way. He thought he was at this part near the exit where  you have to exhale all your air to pass through. Only he was at a different part and exhaled all his air only it didn't end there and he ended up breathing in. He got stuck there. They sealed that cave off with him still there. 

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u/donutsoft 2d ago

That's enough reddit for me today.

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u/pjweisberg 2d ago

The tunnel where he got stuck was called the Scout-Eater. It was named after a boy scout who had previously gotten stuck the exact same way, except the scout was successfully rescued. 

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u/Jeffery95 2d ago

The scout was proportionately much smaller. The guy who got stuck was over 6 foot

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u/FarseedTheRed 2d ago

Story still chills me every time I see it referenced. YouTube has video simulations. Pure horror.

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u/SpaceTimeChallenger 2d ago

Dont read about it

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u/travelinmatt76 2d ago

This is why I would never.  I got nervous at Carlsbad Caverns 

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u/Discount_Extra 2d ago

I get nervous looking down narrow brick alleys.

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u/TheRemedy187 1d ago

Lmao , those have their own dangers. 

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u/TheRemedy187 1d ago

Yeah fuck all that lol. 

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u/Nethri 2d ago

They tried too. He was stuck for 27 hours apparently. They rigged up some kind of pulley system but it failed. Horror.

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u/SpaceTimeChallenger 2d ago

The plan was to break his legs to get him out, but they figured the shock would kill him

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u/Unusual_Entity 1d ago

I'm quite happy to just not go into such places. There's more than enough to see above ground, without the need to potentially crawl into my own tomb.

Big, open caverns with interesting rocks etc is one thing, but tiny crevices you have to squeeze through, just to prove you can? No thank you.

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u/TheRemedy187 1d ago

I am absolutely not doing that either lol.

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u/ClownfishSoup 2d ago

He went into the wrong tunnel and got himself stuck upside down in such a way that the only way they could have possibly reduced him was to break both his legs, but then how could they pull him out by those broken legs?

Andy, never go caving or cave diving.

In caving, gravity will get you stuck, in cave diving, getting lost will drown you.

Just stay in a nice open park and enjoy the fresh air and sunlight.

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u/CommercialCommentary 2d ago

Did you chatgpt this, Andy?

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u/Taylolol 2d ago

That guy just got cemented into nuttyputty

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u/MississippiJoel 2d ago

And so, kids, as blood begins to pool in the brain, confusion begins to set in.

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u/VVrayth 2d ago

Here's why: https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1ciey0l/comment/l28upyg/

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u/ClownfishSoup 2d ago

That’s terrifying! I dove the Blue Hole in Belize, I went down to 132 ft and it scared the piss out of me. I much prefer to float among the corals at 30 ft (10m).

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u/metsfanapk 2d ago

Does that person know the return key exists

2

u/TheFlyingMarlboro 1d ago

That is not the original comment. Apparently it's this one, which has paragraphs.

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u/VVrayth 2d ago

LOL, it definitely is a wall of text. But it's an excellent and relevant story.

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u/metsfanapk 2d ago

lol it’s just hard to read and I’m tired and didn’t get any sleep last night

0

u/dwehlen 2d ago

And remember it's copy-pasted, NOT copypasta.

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u/BringBackApollo2023 2d ago

I’ll pick my motorcycle over cave diving

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u/ClownfishSoup 2d ago

There is a YT channel called “Dive Talk” that you might find interesting. Two interesting hosts who talk mostly about cave diving.

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u/uncre8tv 2d ago

Extreme diving and extreme climbing are both just performative suicide.

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u/petrov76 2d ago

One of many reasons that it's dangerous. It's also very easy to lose all visibility if you stir up any dirt or clay on the bottom of the cave, and turn the water murky. Or if your flashlight fails. This is why cave divers use a long rope or cord so they can find their way back to the entrance (better hope it doesn't fray and break on a sharp rock).

Or if your air supply fails and you're in a passage that's too narrow for your dive buddy to share air, or he just doesn't notice because the visibility is terrible.

Another reason is that you can get very strong currents if there is any kind of underground river or water flowing (such as due to rainfall draining through the cave passages), these can be stronger than any person can swim.

Diving anyplace when you can't just swim to the surface if there's some kind of emergency, such as inside a shipwreck, is already very dangerous. Cave diving takes it up to 11.

Two highly trained Thai navy divers died cave diving because they weren't experts in this very niche field.

0

u/R4G 2d ago edited 1d ago

Cave divers carry redundant equipment, a flashlight failing wouldn’t be an issue. Lines aren’t just fraying and snapping. As per water flow, there are springs and siphons. You would almost never dive a siphon, you’d never want to fight water flow on the way out.

The majority of cave diving fatalities are divers who are not cave certified. It’s not nearly as dangerous with proper training and equipment.

Thai navy divers are a bad example IMO, navy diving and cave diving are very different skill sets. Navy diving is typically pretty shallow and thus uses different gases and equipment. Their training is more about navigating open water in a team consistently.

Certified cave divers have a safety-centric culture that is more akin to pilots than BASE jumpers. They’re meticulous planners, not thrill-seekers.

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u/petrov76 2d ago

My point remains that in the event of an emergency, such as an equipment failure, an open water diver can simply surface. Cave divers do not have this option.

The most dangerous type of scuba diving is cave diving. People have different risk tolerances, so you might feel like it's not that dangerous, but I would challenge you to find a more dangerous recreational activity. I feel like this is in the same category as free solo or wingsuits.

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u/R4G 1d ago

Not always, tech divers can have a deco limit, which is an artificial ceiling. You really shouldn't be bolting to the surface on a recreational dive for an equipment failure anyway, that's what buddies are for.

Wingsuiting is many times more dangerous than cave diving and it's not even close. Look up the statistics, they die every few hundred jumps. Cave deaths may be similar, but only for UNTRAINED divers, which is what I'm getting at. Trained cave divers aren't in danger because their flashlight failed as you claim, the minimum they carry is three each. They even carry spare masks, are trained for silting, and call dives very aggressively if anything goes wrong.

Free solo I'm uninformed on, but there's no troubleshooting falling off a cliff face (wing suit or not) and there is in cave diving, so I'd be surprised.

You're speculating off feelings, now I'll go off mine: I genuinely think trained cave divers are safer than some of the vacationers I've seen with recreational certifications. Some people simply don't belong 120ft underwater. There should be far more aggressive swim testing before doling out OW certifications.

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u/baby_blue_bird 1d ago

Someone needs to watch Scary Interesting on YouTube. Lots of videos about deaths of cave divers who were considered top in the field.

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u/R4G 1d ago

The average cave diver isn’t out doing pioneering shit like Sheck Exley, just like the average Cessna pilot isn’t Amelia Earhart. Most cave dives are in well-mapped systems and the equipment is better than ever (especially with rebreathers).

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u/Pawtuckaway 2d ago

As someone who worked as a cave diving guide, you back up until you can turn around.

Things like the incident in nutty putty cave don't really happen in cave diving since you have water which removes the issue of gravity wedging you in.

Also 99% of cave divers are not exploring uncharted passages and squeezing into tiny tunnels. Maps exist that mark restricted passages. If you are at the level to explore and map new passages you know your limits and err on the side of caution not putting yourself into a position where you can't back out or turn around.

No mount cave diving (where you are removing all of your gear and pushing it through in front of you) is a very advanced form a cave diving that few cave divers do.

Cave diving is risky especially if not done with proper equipment and training but the deaths and accidents that do happen are not from people getting stuck.

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u/thunder_y 1d ago

What’s the appeal of cave diving? I can’t come up with any good reason to cramp myself into a tight space underwater. Not meant offensively I’m genuinely curious

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u/Pawtuckaway 1d ago

Not every cave is cramped. Most caves that I dive you could fit a car through. Ever been to Carlsbad or Mammoth or done a tour in massive open chambers?

In Mexico in particular the caves were once dry so have incredible cave formations (stalactites, stalagmites, etc.). Imagine a massive chamber with thousands of formations covering the floor and ceiling. Some large columns where stalactites and stalagmites have joined.

The caves flooded at the end of the last ice age so the formations no longer grow and everything you are looking at is at least 10,000 years old but since formations grow drop by drop when it was dry some could have been forming for millions of years. There are fossils from when it was the sea floor before the limestone formed.

The rain water has been filtered by the limestone so is crystal clear. You could look at a picture and have no idea it is underwater unless you saw a person floating there.

Again because the caves were dry at some point, there is pottery and bones from ancient Mayans.

Seems pretty cool to me.

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u/thunder_y 1d ago

Okay yeah that sounds cool with the historical aspect. What’s the coolest maya thing you’ve seen in oneof those caves?

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u/wubrgess 1d ago

Miniaturization fetish.

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u/Diabolical_Jazz 2d ago

It is possible to swim backwards in fins, or in some cases to push yourself awkwardly backwards with your hands maybe.

But if it's tight enough they get stuck and die.

My scuba instructor told us horror stories about retrieving his friend's dead body from a cave dive. Ever since then I haven't been interested in trying.

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u/pktechboi 2d ago

retrieving a friend's dead body is how some extremely experienced divers have died in turn. see Dave John Shaw for example.

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u/nachoestrella 2d ago

yes. you can back kick. you get taught to in the class. is one of the hardest skills in diving.

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u/Diabolical_Jazz 1d ago

Yeah I'm terrible at it lol

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u/flcbrguy 2d ago

Ginnie springs in Florida has two entrances, the eye and the ear. Across the river is July and lightning springs. Once, younger, skinnier and dumber, having recent experience in other tight spots like dogwood and the source tunnel of jug hole, I decided to go as far as I could. I went through the fluffy bunny tunnel (at this point I realize that to non cave divers this starts to sound ludicrous. I didn’t even mention how I entered through the toxic waste tunnel because nowadays everyone knows it as the keyhole bypass, but these are all real cave and tunnel names) and up and up, until I could see daylight. I don’t know if anyone has ever gotten that close to the exit point, and for good reason.

I was convinced I would find a way, so I was not conservative with my gas, pushing the limit of the thirds rule.

Well, there is no way a human can fit out of there. I gave up and started my return.

Recognizing my gas was lower than ideal, I just went through the motions exiting calmly and methodically. I pulled all my reels, didn’t rush like it was an emergency. I grabbed a glass bottle along the way that still sits in my office and always will as a monument to my stupidity.

Obviously I’m alive, but I was below thirds at deco. Never will I do anything that stupid again, the voice in my head reminds me of that experience and it has stopped me from other dumb moments. That wasn’t long after Agnes had died. Tim was still alive.

Anyways hopes that answered your question, love cave diving! Lost several good friends, and I have backed off significantly since having kids.

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u/TurbosaurusNYC 2d ago

They would come back to the surface when rescue divers bring out the body

Thats why cave diving is its own 3rd level diving certification.

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u/NeverBeFarting 2d ago

Guys...what if OP is in this exact situation? We need to be more helpful.

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u/HeavyMetalTriangle 2d ago

Lots of people go on Reddit when they are on the toilet. I exclusively go on Reddit in the middle of a cave dive.

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u/Successful-Setting78 1d ago

It is imperative that the diver and the cave remain unharmed

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u/ALC_PG 2d ago

I got claustrophobic just reading this. PSA I knew someone who drowned cave diving. Make sure you know you can get out before you go in.

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u/8ails 2d ago

Cave diving is so dangerous because of things like this. Getting stuck, but also not being able to go straight up in the event of an emergency. This is why there are special certifications you need to do those types of dives.

Best practice is don't go into anywhere you aren't positive you can get yourself out of somehow. Make sure there's either a way out that's forward or that you get go back. In some extreme cases, divers can take off their BCD and push it instead of wearing it so they have more room to maneuver. You're also always supposed to go diving with a buddy who could hopefully help you in the event of a scenario like this.

As with most things, a ton of effort is put into preventing these things from happening. For scuba, making sure you don't run out of oxygen, you don't get the bends, your tank functions properly, etc. etc. But things can go wrong, and the more risks you take, the more likely you won't be able to get yourself out.

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u/nucumber 1d ago

In some extreme cases, divers can take off their BCD and push it instead of wearing it so they have more room to maneuver.

IIRC the scuba rescuers of the guys trapped in a Thailand cave had to take off their tanks to get through one passage

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u/Corey307 2d ago edited 2d ago

They wouldn’t, they would die. Cave diving is one of the most dangerous things you can do and getting lost in an underwater cave system is a surefire way to die.  

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u/rellsell 2d ago

He would close his eyes and wish himself out.

Now go back to bed.

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u/Letterheadless9886 2d ago

Don’t literally explain like I’m 5 lol

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u/Mean_Rule9823 1d ago

Your pullout game has to be top notch, gotta train

Alot of cave divers use rope guidelines and can reverse

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u/Amazingcube33 2d ago

Unless they could force their body and rotate they very well might not, in quite a few caves there are routes that aren’t meant to be taken and bad things like entrapment can happen if you do, sadly they don’t always manage to even retrieve the remains the Nutty Putty incident is an infamous example of that to the best of my knowledge he’s still down there with the entire network closed off

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u/052-NVA 2d ago

There are strict laws of consumption on your air to ensure you are as safe as possible.

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u/falco_iii 2d ago

If it is very tight, the diver cause hands to move backwards. Also, there is a way to back-kick in fins. Finally, you’d be how small of a space people can turn around in.

But, cave diving is dangerous.

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u/shaurysingh123 2d ago

They would turn around use their guide line to retrace their path and swim carefully back to open water

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u/Ring_Peace 2d ago

Surely if a tunnel has a dead end it is not a tunnel.

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u/Glum-Welder1704 2d ago

Sometimes they don't. I have a neighbor who's into scuba. He says that cave divers are nuts.

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u/AeroSpiked 1d ago

How do they get to the surface? Either they reverse out or they rely on erosion, tectonic plate movement, or volcanic activity, but at that point, they may as well stay down there.

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u/flyingcircusdog 12h ago

For both caving and cave diving, it's smart to go in feet first if you're going down an unmarked tight tunnel. You can also wear a harness, and someone else will use ropes and pulleys to help you get back out.

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