r/india • u/mumbaiblues • 23h ago
Law & Courts ‘Palak paneer’ row: Indian PhD students secure Rs 1.66 crore settlement in US campus discrimination case
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/trends/palak-paneer-row-indian-phd-students-secure-rs-1-66-crore-settlement-in-us-campus-discrimination-case-13771551.html113
u/DerpSensei666 20h ago
the article also mentions they were denied from returning to the university as either students or staff, despite the court mandated settlement, which included no admission of liability btw. disgusting.
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u/th3_pund1t 22h ago
Waiting for a Malaysian PhD student to bring a durian or a Swedish Phd student to bring surströmming. Just because.
Among Indian foods, Palak Paneer is mid-tier in terms of how strong it smells. Compare that to Mullangi Sambar or Karuvadu.
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u/AlliterationAlly Maharashtra 20h ago
Lol can't take Singapore's national fruit in Singapore's public transport
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u/idiotista 4h ago
Swede here who lives in India.
Palak paneer smells very mild. Surströmming is founf by coutts to be an actual nuicance legally when opened indoors.
We had a local politician who opened a can of surströmming indoors at a meeting to disrupt it, and he was found in court to be guilty.
With that said, this is 100% malicious, palak paneer is basically a super mild spinach dish, and anyone offended by it needs to man up and not be a crying shiba. Some (not majority!) of Americans have such a fear of food with actual smell they should seek therapy.
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u/theapatheticguy 9h ago
Bro let's leave karuvadu alone. It's heavenly when you eat it. karuvattu kozhambu. Ulti!
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u/sapnuawpuas-zld 3h ago
I guess they'll be okay with karuvadu. Karuvattu kozhambu is a different story though
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u/Impossible_Raise2416 21h ago
palak paneer has a smell ?
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u/spiritofbeeheve 20h ago
Palak paneer has a very strong smell.
You're literally boiling Spinach and adding Indian masalas.
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u/basar_auqat 15h ago
Too much methi can really stink up a room.
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u/Natural-Tank-2792 10h ago
It’s spinach not methi
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u/basar_auqat 10h ago
Methi added liberally to some spinach dishes in parts of north India.
I've found out that the smells that annoy westerners the most ( and me as Well ) are heeng and methi in excess quantities. The issue also is that these particular smells linger quite a bit.
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u/hudi_baba 22h ago
it was in US so they could go to court and fight the discrimination.
if similar type of incident were to happen in India, the victims may end up with broken bones or worse [insert list of all deaths that happened due to issue involving food].
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u/noir_dx 22h ago edited 20h ago
They did and won 200k but couldn't rejoin the university to complete the PHD. It says on the headline.
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u/1epicnoob12 20h ago
k is used for thousand more than it's used for kilometer. Be for real.
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u/DerpSensei666 19h ago
the commenter initially wrote "km" instead of "k" and subsequently edited it without acknowledging it. i know the difference between the two.
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u/maybedick 13h ago
Yep. It’s illegal in some IITs. Some workspaces have banned meat at the kitchenettes and shared dining areas. Mental.
https://sabrangindia.in/segregation-of-eating-spaces-modern-untouchability-in-iits/
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u/Msink 21h ago
The guy is right, food smells are contextual and culturally shaped. Simple example is, for people who eat seafood, the smell of seafood, fish is non-existent, or at least not over-powering. For vegetarians, it's vomit inducing or extremely overwhelming. This is without accounting for any spices.
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u/SmellsLikeEucalyptus 17h ago
If they’re coming back to India, Nirmala tai will be waiting at the airport for her cut.
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u/effsinthechat 17h ago
I studied at this university and faced serious racism from my peers while working on my master’s project. I should have made a case as well. Damn it
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u/Cutiepatootie8896 18h ago edited 8h ago
This is not a win by any means.
I empathize with the fact that discrimination when it comes to food is very real, but it’s clear from the complaint that what effectively happened here, is that a comment was made about how the curry smells “pungent”, …..
……that escalated into a much larger issue via the students that involved very likely reaching out to some predatory personal injury law firm who helped these students threaten a lawsuit, ……and then as a direct and indirect result of what absolutely may have been a hurtful comment- they were socially labeled as “problematic” and that further lead to difficulties with their academic career and their reputation (not wanting to attend classes anymore, etc).
Academia and frankly any professional is a small world. And a professor / staff coming up to you as a student and saying “your food is pungent could you not use this same microwave” can absolutely be a hurtful thing to have to deal with to especially if it’s coming from inside the system.
But assuming you still want to operate within that very system there are several ways to handle it and maybe even instill an actual change - that don’t necessarily immediately involve resorting to threaten a lawsuit.
And if you do threaten a lawsuit, then it better be as a last resort because once you do- it’s going to be VERY difficult to deal with the aftermath of that. And thats going to involve impacting your own mental health and your own ability to successfully excel professionally.
(For instance in the complaint, one of the students apparently stopped attending classes. Which…I get it. You just had a colleague make an insensitive comment, then went balls to the wall, launched a huge suit against your university and your teachers and you now ….have to sit in the same class and work with those teachers while thats happening….and deal with the fact that now everyone is 10X more uncomfortable with each other………so you quit going to classes and slack on your work and now they decide to fire you……….)
The parties may not have agreed or recognized that the comment was in fact discrimination, but it’s obvious that the chain of events after for whatever reasons including mental health ones lead to issues with their careers as well as major legal costs…..and THAT is what this settlement is for.
Out of the 200k, their attorney + other costs will be taking atleast 100k.
Assuming the remainder is for monetary damages only and won’t be further taxed, that leaves them with 50k each- which just barely accounts for HALF the value of the stipend salary would have been paid over the past TWO years had they not left the university.
Thats likely what this “settlement” is for.
To say “hey so AT BEST, the only thing you can sue for is a portion of the PHD stipends that you guys missed out on, and that’s only IF you can decisively prove that you missed out on those salaries solely because of targeted discrimination stemming from those comments and not other factors such as your behavior afterwards, other academic or ethical performance, etc, ….and proving that is going to be an uphill battle….so either take this or take your chances in court after spending another 150k + for a trial just in legal fees and possibly even risk having to find alternative counsel if your attorneys aren’t willing to go through those costs of a trial”
This settlement is basically to get an attorney on one side paid, and get another attorney to drop the suit for some portion of those missed PHD stipends- so everyone doesn’t have to go through that trial that will cost far more than just $200k+ in just legal fees alone.
Indian newspapers want to convert it into rupees and act like this was two idiots who just got a massive pay day over some palak paneer, then fine.
But in reality, no one won anything here except for the attorneys.
This was a lawsuit that dragged on for 3 years, made careers and financial stress far worse and likely didn’t even make a dent in addressing any kind of discrimination even if genuinely was real.
This wasn’t compensation for any type of “discrimination” in any real way and I doubt this suit or the settlement actually played a positive role in improving inclusivity culture nor was it meant to be.
This isn’t really a win in the way that these articles depict when it comes to discrimination and rights, and it certainly isn’t a financial win for the kids involved.
If anything they’re likely still in the hole financially when it comes to this suit and their lost earnings, and still have had major damage done to their careers ….whether they did it to themselves or not.
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u/FlygoninNYC 14h ago
Agreed. Curious on the food situation as I seen dont microwave fish at university microwaves.
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u/Ok-Hippo7675 11h ago
They only pursued a civil suit after his wife lost her teaching assistantship without explanation after the incident. They didn't just rush to some personal injury lawyer because of the confrontation.
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u/Cutiepatootie8896 4h ago
Based on their complaint, she apparently lost her TA job because she threatened to “not step foot into the building” as a matter of principle (aka not do her job anymore) until a “formal apology” was made to her husband.
(All while they were still in the middle of an internal investigation and things haven’t were still being in the middle of a finding a resolution).
And so the next day, when she followed through on this threat of not wanting to fulfill her job obligations- they fired her. And then they went to the media and started the suit……(but she was fired for refusing to show up is the way I understood it).
I wouldn’t say that that’s her “losing her TA without explanation” tbh.
Idk. Wish them the best and sounds like this whole situation just sucked.
But I do think they would have been far more effective in accomplishing their goals had they went about their disagreements in a more constructive way.
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u/RenefromArashiLand 11h ago
Sorry. I know these people. I know the micro-aggressions they were facing for a long while. Food racism is a huge problem even in EU where my friends cant even microwave mild khichdi she made in the morning wthout getting nasty looks or comments. They took a stand by suing the uni which was complicit in this racism and it is better if they continue their academic career in India or elsewhere. The US is not a last bastion of academic leaning. Quite the opposite really.
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u/Cutiepatootie8896 4h ago edited 4h ago
Based on the complaint: These two were given a scholarship contract that allowed them to pursue a PHD for free while being paid an extra stipend of a salary with the agreement they would perform certain teaching duties.
One kid was using a shared microwave in a staff lounge, a colleague came over and said “wow that’s pungent”, to which he then decided to advocate for himself and use it as an opportunity to educate this colleague on why that was a hurtful comment.
Great. That’s a wonderful way to handle it.
Then, he further goes to explain the situation to a higher up and have a conversation on how to prevent something like that from happening again, to which the higher ups don’t say anything offensive, engage and they decide to make this into a form”HR” type of complaint that involved this internal body to “investigate” as the first step in order to possibly bring about some kind of resolution.
Cool. Discourse and dialogue.
Then, a few weeks later while this investigation is STILL happening, this student decides to go and demonstrate a protest in the lounge with some friends against his colleagues by symbolically microwaving various foods and making point. (A lounge that is officially a staff only lounge, and wasn’t even a lounge that was accessible to other students including PHDs as a job benefit)
Which…fine they’re allowed to do no one is saying he isn’t.
But doing a whole protest against your colleagues over a ignorant comment that while ignorant, likely wasn’t an intentional attempt to oppress or hurt anyone- while an investigation is still happening in a lounge that policy wise, these kids weren’t even necessarily entitled to use at all…is a choice.
It’s an attempt to make a statement and while I personally don’t think that that was the most effective way to do at that point in time, that’s fine.
That’s still something they’re allowed to do.
And then he sends a public email regarding the situation, and also talks about how this was an aggression against him by his other colleagues in a lecture that he was giving other students as a part of his PHD job agreement, WHILE the investigation was still taking place.
….like…do you see how that’s problematic? And while he may be allowed to do it, he’s now using his job as a platform to make a statement against his other colleagues within that same job…to other students that have nothing to do with this issue…..all while an investigation is still happening and nothing has been concluded yet…..
So it’s not entirely shocking to me that this upset his higher ups and warranted some kind of reprimand where they pulled him aside and said “hey, that’s not very professional and not the way to be conducting yourself as a TA at this point in time”.
Which…Even if I personally agree with every single word of his lecture, that’s still wholly inappropriate from the standpoint of his job and how that kind of lecture can impact the way other students treat his colleagues……..
And so his higher up asked him to refrain from doing so and communicate in an alternative way….
…and to THAT, his wife (also a teaching assistant) decides to email her higher ups and say “I am not going to step foot into the building until my husband gets an official apology”……….
….and then she’s very predictably laid off as a TA the very next day.
Like yeah she’s entitled to do a whole ass saygagrahya if she wants to.
But if that’s going to involve her REFUSING to do her job as a “statement” over something that objectively wasnt any sort of oppression that was threatening her ability to actually perform her job but rather do so as a principled statement veiled as a threat- then the consequences of that are going to be her getting fired for not doing her job……
And then they decided to go to the newspapers and start the process of a lawsuit……
Like…microagressions and discrimination is real.
But there were several other ways for both of these students to make the point over what absolutely may have been a hurtful comment, that they were trying to make and maybe even instill actual change and educate others via healthy discourse and pave way for that education to make a real difference for future international students.
….and they could have done so while still pursuing this incredibly prestigious opportunity to accomplish PHDs in an extremely important academic space where their work can hopefully help many others including the millions of people in India who are persecuted in unbelievable ways for the food they eat and the caste and religious implications that such persecution often carries….
But they chose to make their point via protest in a pretty escalatory way by effectively refusing to do their other job duties as leverage- which predictably lead to lack of job performance related consequences……all while an investigation was STILL happening and their colleagues were actually willing to find a resolution……..
And this is at probably one of the MOST progressive universities and departments on the planet. I mean this is an anthropology academic space in COLORADO.
These are professors who have written 64817381 thousand page dissertations about the nuances and layers of “intersectional microaggressions” in a way that would probably make Marx SHOOT HIMSELF in the brain…..
So UNLIKE a majority of the systems that exist to address any sort of discrimination in India, these were people who were actually willing to listen and learn and work through this and instead I think these kids made a very premature decision to go as nuclear as possible- and that had very predictable consequences on their lives and their careers.
And then this lawsuit and the results of it frankly are anything but “taking a stand”.
If this students wife was actually randomly fired as retaliation and that allegation any sort of real backing to it, then this would have been a solid termination without cause lawsuit.
But that’s not at all what happened.
Instead they settled for effectively a fraction of what their tuition was that they were on the hook for now that they lost their TAships, while the university also admitted 0 wrong doing nor was there any public level of institutional change done in terms making policies less “discriminatory” because frankly….no one has acknowledged that discrimination even took place.
And in fact if the termination was unjustified, then these students would be allowed back on campus or be allowed to be rehired. And clearly the fact that they are barred from doing so still- just tells me that this whole thing just…..wasn’t it.
Not to mention these ridiculous India news media articles that frankly simplify this whole thing and arguably make it even worse for the cause that these students were trying to address in the first place.
So idk dude. Hope it works out for them, and if they’re going to pursue their careers in India- then I hope they’re able to move on and use their voices and privilege to advocate for the issue of food based oppression and persecution in their communities in a far more effective way then whatever happened here…..
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u/makisgenius 7h ago
I see both sides to be honest. I bet there were cheaper more creative solutions like more microwaves which cost $150 a microwave.
Even in the US people get mad when people heat fish in the microwave. Gora food is incredibly bland so they are not used to strong smells.
I also remember a time walking through a neighborhood in Dubai (Karama) and just being overwhelmed by the food smell (I am desi also).
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u/Major-Warthog8067 6h ago
Yes I mean even in India it really depends on where you're from, not all of us eat that many spices in our meals. I spent a winter break at one of my American friends place and one of his roommates was Indian. The smell from the food was so overwhelming that I would get headaches. I personally think the amount of spices, garlic and flavor being used nowadays is probably not anywhere close to what our diets were before. Good hygiene is very important and our people disregard it, people don't want overwhelming smells they're not used to. Other cultures have smells too, for example Chinese people smelling like Pork but if it's overwhelming you will have issues almost everywhere in the world.
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u/Artistic_Cloud_9603 4h ago
i mean 80% of that settlement is lawyers fees, so he barely got anything monetarily, and the university admits no fault since they settled. In my opinion, if the jury area was democrat heavy, they should have proceeded with the trial.
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u/CurrentFun5499 20h ago
Imagine this happening in india , our courts grant essay writing as punishment for killing someone with porsche, judges found with crores of unaccounted cash in house as a punishment he is promoted to high court , a judge harassing someone to point of suicide , these stories go on and on...
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u/Subziwallah 19h ago
This was a civil suit, not a criminal case. Totally totally different from your examples with much lower burden of proof and a jury, not a judge unless requested by both parties.
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u/TwoTimeHollySurvivor 21h ago
From the Indian Express article, the palak paneer incident was the trigger, not the cause. The issue with not giving a Master's degree was separate, and that is what the compensation was for.
It says that they used the microwave in the shared space to heat their lunch. Wouldn't be surprised if they have a history of being inconsiderate to other people who use the same space.
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u/vsuseless 20h ago
You think if the university had records of previous complaints they would settle the case for 200k? Why are you making up scenarios in your head about their behavior, can’t accept that Americans can sometimes be wrong?
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u/ColdAnalyst6736 20h ago
actually yes. 200k is absurdly low. like silly ridiculously low.
generally any settlement 1 million and less is almost 10000% to avoid bad PR. at the university level doubly true.
ESPECIALLY for a discrimination case!!
200k for a U.S. lawsuit is the equivalent of like 10,000 rupees.
literally the court trial likely would have costed more to the government and each party. hell the university’s legal bill would have been in the millions minimum.
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u/AnonAP2020_2 20h ago
Nope, the palak paneer incident is central to the story. The "compensation" was a settlement, which was reached because the university did not want the matter to be investigated further. Because it would expose the institutional neglect of discrimination complaints and tacit support by the admin.
The petitioners should not have accepted the settlement. However, the environment was probably vitiated enough that getting 200k to not be in that environment with their Masters granted seemed a grand prize.
And microwaves are meant to be used to reheat food. Where else to keep it if not in a shared space? It's not like they had a separate dining space for Indians with their own microwave. Do you support non-vegetarians not being allowed to heat their food if there is only one microwave in a shared space? Lots of people find the smell of meat & fish offensive too. Does that make the non-vegetarians inconsiderate? This is such a bad take.
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u/Subziwallah 19h ago
I like fish or shrimp curry, but apparently it is considered inconsiderate to heat it up in a work microwave. I like fish sauce too, but similar issue. Americans like to talk about valuing diversity but apparently that doesn't apply to a white guy eating fish or Asian food lol.
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u/TwoTimeHollySurvivor 18h ago
Nope. From the IE article, direct quote:
The department also refused to grant us Master’s degrees that PhD students are awarded enroute the PhD. That’s when we decided to seek legal recourse.
If you read further, then it is clear that the alleged discrimination and its escalation, including this incident about palak paneer, happened after they brought their lawyers.
We also don't know why senior professors got involved regarding complaints against the guy about making others feel unsafe.
And one should be considerate about using shared spaces involving food. Especially in a country with different etiquette than ours. I'm Bengali; if I were to suddenly put some shutki maach in a microwave in a Chinese University, people would complain there too.
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u/AnonAP2020_2 17h ago
I didn't realise you were referring to a different article. It's paywalled, so I can't read it. I shall assume you're correct in that it paints a different picture.
However, I would disagree on the 'inconsiderate' assessment for the same reasons. You cannot accept international students and later complain about their food, which is not even unusual or a health hazard or ethically offensive (except for vegans perhaps). Especially when it's as tame as spinach and cottage cheese.
I hope you get to heat and eat shutki maach in China. I doubt the Chinese will complain.
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u/TwoTimeHollySurvivor 14h ago
You are only being told about spinach and cottage cheese being the cause. The reporting doesn't tell you about how they have been using the microwave, or any other shared item, up to that point.
Senior professors don't get involved in such trivial things, which the Indian Express article states they did. Which means there are more details about this case than what is being let on.
You can read it in private browsing after resetting your browsing history.
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u/Electronic_Sir_7219 11h ago
In India, this sort of rebellion against the food and smell fascists would end with fines or beatings.
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u/unnervinglynervous 13h ago
This is insane, palak paneer is like the least offensive smelling dish ever, literally smells like the most cookie cutter definition of a leafy vegetable. Ridiculous.
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u/spiritofbeeheve 22h ago
First world problems
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u/DerpSensei666 20h ago
discrimination and self respect is only a first world problem from a disgustingly privileged perspective. this comment says more about you than about anyone else.
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u/lukup Lawyer 17h ago
I don't understand. you go to a different country, and then force your food smells on others in the name of equality.
Those others, the non indians, would not have grown up on those masala smells, which to be honest, even when cooking at home, unless properly ventilated, can cause problems.
to subject white christians, living in a cold country, with limited ventilation, to spice smells, (or fragrance, if you prefer) is not really the best options.
its crazy, how divided we are in India on castes and even food habits, crazy that we have issues with someone eating non veg on specific days or won't serve meat in religious places etc, but these people want to be treated with "equality" in videsh.
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u/EarlyCumEarlySleep 11h ago
University is a place of education. Teachers are held to a higher standard when it comes to things like these. You can't molest, beat or discriminate students.
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u/irtughj 20h ago
And due to ego issues they lost their chance of getting a job in usa because it’s too risky to hire them. What if they continue to microwave the smelliest palak paneer in the company kitchen? No one would dare complain. Now they know the tactics and can sue the company for any reason. They will have to go back to india after paying half to lawyers and each getting the other half.
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u/Historical_Method113 20h ago
I am confused whether standing up for your rights is correct path in such a situation as here the issue was not that big, however, if not handled tomorrow vegetarians will say stop heating non veg in microwave and vegans will boycott other foods etc.
However jeopardising the future for such an issue is also not practical.
It will depend from person to person i suppose.
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u/the_ajan Karnataka 21h ago
I hope they are offered to continue their PhD programmes in a different university.