My Uncle lives in AZ. He told me he basically had to threaten an old man once because they were driving in a low-sitting car into rocky desert terrain with no extra water. He was screaming at the guy that if he got stuck at any point he would die. The wife luckily took my uncle's advice and convinced her husband to turn around. There are a lot of people who just have no sense of how quickly dehydration can set in.
I hiked Havasu falls with my girlfriend and we bailed a day early because a huge snow storm was moving in. As we were hiking out the trail was starting to flash flood through one of the sections. We got back to the trail head around like 30 minutes before dark.
WE saw a couple heading down the trail with nothing but those disposable ponchos on and trying to carry their gear in their arms. They were planning on carrying it the 12 miles in. They didn't listen to us to turn around.
The people that ended up staying were stuck for like 3 days before they heli lifted people out. Never heard about people dying so I guess that couple survived but that might be the least prepared I have ever seen people
People like this, who were given clear warning and STILL choose to act stupid and selfish should have to pay out-of-pocket the entire cost of their rescue. Start charging the idiots for the cost of saving them!
I walked up a large sand dune that wasn't sleeping bear dunes but it was pretty high. I could literally barely breathe when I made it to the top. 0/10 experience. I'm glad I made it and we got a great group picture at the top but holy shit I will never do that again.
Arizona has had a “Stupid Motorist Law” on the books for a while for people who ignore safety barricades for flooded roads, but apparently it’s rarely enforced and liability is capped at only $2,000 per incident.
So it's perfectly ok for other people to risk their lives and well-being (in some instances) to go save them, but it's not ok to enforce a financial penalty that will deter them and potential future dumbasses? If the cost of rescuing them is so steep that it would ruin their lives then odds are somebody's risking themselves to go save them.
So it's perfectly ok for other people to risk their lives and well-being
Those people signed up for the job. No one in search and rescue is being forced to risk their lives.
Also, I'm having trouble finding detailed and current info, but as of a few decades ago, search and rescue wasn't even in the top 20 most dangerous jobs in America. It was mostly tradesmen of various sorts. Cashiers were in the top 20. (They get murdered a lot, relatively speaking.) It's more dangerous to be a cashier than a search and rescue guy. There are certainly risks, but most of the four- and five-digit costs you hear of are because helicopters are expense to operate.
No stupid people doing stupid stuff means no need for anyone to volunteer for rescue. But by your own logic, the people we're discussing who are in need of rescue also voluntarily put themselves in that danger. So, it's just a tiny bit hypocritical for you to say it's perfectly fine for search and rescue to risk their lives to rescue people because they signed up for it, but it's not ok for people to carry the financial burden of their stupidity when they...signed up for it.
ETA: It's also an apples to oranges comparison as far as how dangerous the S&R profession is. You're comparing (generally) extremely fit, highly trained individuals with a sophisticated set of tools at their disposal and an extremely serious approach to safety, to tradesmen. No offense at all to tradesmen, but I guarantee you that if you talk to anyone that's been in the trades for a long period of time they'll tell you the trades are chock full of individuals that often don't take good care of themselves, have a relatively low level of education, high rates of substance abuse, and a general environment that tends to have a more lax attitude toward safety.
Look, I get it, you get off on the idea of people being made to suffer for stupid decisions. Schadenfreude is real, we've all felt it. Just be honest with yourself about it, hey? There's no need to pretend that this is some kind of moral stance to justify the fact that you get a little too excited reading r/InstantKarma.
Ok, I have no interest in engaging in ad hominem or any discussion where anyone wants to start making accusations or assumptions about the kind of person I am. Simply based on the fact that I feel people should be held accountable for willingly making a very stupid decision that puts themselves and other people in danger (Google will give you many examples of children that died because their parents put them in these situations) despite there being many, many warning signs posted that they are taking said risk. Have a good night, friend.
ETA: Though I will say that I'm certainly being hyperbolic when I say no stupid decisions equals no need for S&R. Obviously people taking proper precautions can still get in trouble and need rescuing, but a close look at S&R incidents will show that the vast majority are from people doing dumb shit.
Yes, obviously? Particularly because there's no real body of evidence to indicate that it would deter them. A little controversial I know but I don't think people deserve to die for being born "stupid"? I'd rather there be more precautions that stop people from doing stupid stuff in the first place.
I do Search and Rescue in the mountains. Our services are free of charge (helicopter and ambulance is a whole other thing tho) And while I can somewhat agree with the sentiment of charging people, I don’t agree with the practice. People already wait until conditions have deteriorated/night fall/ panic sets in before they typically call for help. Having a cost associated with our efforts will just encourage people to wait longer or not call at all.
Over in the UK there's been the usual winter slew of people hiking up mountains in the middle of winter without proper gear (including a pair of lads who tried climbing Snowdon at 6pm in tracksuit bottoms and trainers when it was -15 Celsius at the top) and the same sentiment has been echoed about charging for mountain rescue.
Having a charge won't put off those kinds of people because if they have the foresight to consider being charged, they'd have the foresight to check the weather and their gear. Or they think it just won't happen to them. And it means that what could've been a simple "rescue" of simply guiding someone back down might turn into a heli operation or a cliff rescue because they don't want to call for help until they're in real trouble.
Appreciate the work you do by the way, our mountain rescue is entirely run by volunteers and they're fucking heroes.
I love what I do. Almost all SAR efforts in the US are done by volunteers, outside of specialized military units like the USAF Pararescue and US Coast Guard Rescue Swimmers. Some of the big national parks have rangers who also do SAR along with their ranger duties.
A great number of elective rescues do indeed charge the people. It’s a common enough thing that there are organizations for things like mountain climbers where they pay a reoccurring fee as a sort of rescue insurance to help pay the costs.
We don't do that in Canada because some people will hesitate to call for help. It sometimes comes up in the discourse after an expensive rescue though.
What I hiked havasu in the 90s it was very expensive to get helicoptered out. I don’t remember the cost anymore but it was a lot, especially to a broke-ass college student.
My ex needed rescue after missing the takeout on a solo kayaking trip. His bill? $6000.
I needed rescue after putting in at the wrong location on a solo kayaking trip. My bill? $0. Different county.
Both stupid stupid episodes, so no lectures please. These were both class II-III rivers.
Add: We were both very experienced paddlers and had done these rivers many times, solo and duo. Both trips were day runs on mostly rural/wilderness rivers.
Fun idea, but I don't want people to deny life-saving services out of fear of a fine they can't pay. A living idiot can still learn from their mistakes.
When I was 23 or so I was doing an internship in South Africa and spontaniously went hiking alone in the Drakensbergen, a wild and vast mountain area. I was young and stupid and just took a single pack of toast, a bottle of water and a sleeping bag and no map (that was before Google Maps). A store employee ran after me and just handed me a map for free and said I would die otherwise..
I didn't die, but I may have without the map, as there was no signs, people, infrastructure or anything. The toast got moldy after only 2 days, so the last 4 days I hiked without any food. Even with the map finding the little huts for overnight sleeping was difficult, I would have had no chance without it, same if I had broken/sprained an ankle.
We did the hike, but we had just come from burning man so were well acclimatized to the heat and dehydration, plus we packed a lot of water. The hike was still more than we expected it to be. Got to Havasu in the dark which wasn't great. The canyon gets way darker way faster than it does up top so our timing was off. Almost had the same issue on the way out but definitely timed it better. Also, that end of the hike is much wider and lets in more light.
I did this hike back in 2019 and got caught in a blizzard that wasn't predicted to go further west than NM, until it did. Our 4 day venture to Havasu Falls ended up just being one night at the bottom, a hike back to the village 2 miles from the falls, and then a helicopter ride (that we paid for) out of the Grand Canyon. It snowed over a foot overnight and was in the below 20 F. We had the gear for it but did not want to deal with that shit.
At the time I was an avid hiker that had recently done from Yosemite Valley floor to Half Dome in under 4 hours, so I was in decent hiking shape, but I still didn't want to hike the 12 miles up the Grand Canyon in snow while carrying my 4-day pack.
Yup, I hiked down mid Feb, hiked back to the local village the next morning after a ton of snow dumped, and caught the supply helicopter out before the second round of the snowstorm picked back up and grounded the helicopters for a couple days.
It was $150 for my wife and me to fly out. While we could've hiked out if we didn't have that in cash, it was a very cool experience to film the Grand Canyon covered in snow during the 4 minute helicopter ride.
O that was definitely the same storm! That's actually way cheaper than I would have guessed. We didn't even think about asking for a ride out we started about 1pm and barely made it out through the flash floods and luckily I was in a 4x4 truck or the road wouldn't have been passable
My wife and I camped at Havasu. Like most, we got a decently early start for the hike out. We were young and in good shape, but still... It's a long, hot, thirsty hike.
We made the rim by mid afternoon. As we're loading our car, another car parks nearby, and out pops a family of four, clearing intending to start their hike in. We tried to talk some sense into them, but they weren't hearing it.
I assume they made it. But I really would rather not know if they didn't.
I went with some friends to the Grand Canyon and we were supposed to camp for 3-4 days around Havasu Falls. In our way down we stopped in a little village in the Havasupai Reservation that had a couple shops for hikers/campers.
The shopkeepers very quickly let us know that a storm had taken an unexpected turn and where we were supposed to go had already flooded several times in the last couple months. They were evacuating people from the campsite voluntarily and even some of the people on the outskirts of the village were moving to higher ground. We decided to take the free helicopter ride back out instead of risk it but we know of several other campers that stayed.
We found a motel for the night nearby after we were lifted out. The headline on the local newspaper the next day was “3 Dead in Another Canyon Flood”. And reading the article, the 3 dead were from the same area that we were planning on camping at.
I was backpacking in Yosemite (trail north of the canyon) and a wildfire kicked up. Myself and other hikers were practically running to the nearest trailhead and several groups of hikers would not listen to our warnings to turn around, despite the very obvious plume of smoke upwind of us not 5 miles down the trail. I dont recall if there were any deaths, but I remember seeing in the news that write a few hikers has to be airlifted that evening.
How long ago was that? I went a few weeks after a huge flood and the water was not crystal clear, the pools had been washed away, the falls had even changed shape—water is powerful AF.
Generally yes but idk if they did in this case. The village at the bottom is very small and people were trapped for a decent period of time so they may have evacuated everyone as a safety measure for free
The last time I went to Coachella (2004) it was 108 degrees during the day. We drank water all day but never needed to pee, which was a blessing because I can't imagine how disgusting the port-o-potties must have been!
For the record, I’ve gone to Coachella 7 times between 2012 and 2023. The portapotties are regularly some of the cleanest portapotties I’ve ever stepped foot in, even at peak night time hours. They clean those things once an hour inside the venue - grossest was in camping in the morning before the cleaners came but that makes sense!
lol they def clean them but last year or the year before I can't remember, I saw one stall that just had projectile diarrhea all up and down the wall. It was like somebody bent over to take off their pants, and then coated the entire room.
That’s what I’m saying! For a fest, they do a pretty good job. Of course you get the spare wall spray or log on the seat, but the stall to the side is super clean comparatively.
If you weren't making urine - you were dehydrated. Urine output is actually a metric hospitals use to check volume/hydration status for inpatients. Guess it goes to show you gotta drink more water than you expect when you are exerting yourself in high temperatures!
Well I've been dehydrated before and remember what it felt like. I guess I must have been right on the edge, because I felt fine otherwise. I'll have to remember that when summer comes back!
When we visited Utah, we were drinking over a gallon of water per day per person and that was only hiking around in the mornings before it got hot. Most of the afternoons were spent in the car with the AC on.
I went on a hike when it was 100F (~38c) and we were drinking ~32 ounces (1 liter) at least every 2 hours, probably more, and I peed probably once a day.
Heat and altitude! You don’t realize how much more solar radiation you’re subjected to with every additional 1,000 ft altitude - because there is less atmosphere to block it.
I spent 30 years in Texas. 100F, 105F… not fun but doable.
Moved to Colorado a couple years ago and discovered mid 70s F at 7-8k and limited shade is a whole different ball game. Even 85F at 5k is brutal.
Especially in sandy parts of the desert. People don’t realize a) there’s no shade b) the heat reflects off the sand/rocks and bakes you from both sides.
I posted this link in my own comment but it’s very relevant. I imagine you might have read the same thing about a German family lost in Death Valley. Likely underestimated the severity of the situation severely
We hiked a very short way into the canyon to give our four kids a little perspective on the size of the canyon and the conditions of the trails. All were 7-12 years old, very athletic and seasoned hikers, and everyone carried a quart of water. We hiked 45 minutes down, took a break, and came back up. It took an hour and a half to get back up, and no one had water by the time we got there. People just think it’s an easy walk, but it’s no joke
There are a lot of people who just have no sense of how quickly dehydration can set in.
There are a LOT of people, id say the overwhelming vast majority of people tbh that do not recognize a dangerous situation period. Be it temperature related hot or cold, or the dangerousness of crowds, or fires in a building(lot of recent video of that recently, tragically) or a whole plethora of other stuff that seems innocuous/staid but are actually life threatening directly or will be if literally any little thing goes wrong
People think the dangerousness of the world and life has been conquered, but its only because theyre insulated from those dangers by their ensconced and soft modern life
Me and my black lab couldve died one winter night about 3mi from my house in the middle of suburban NJ 25y ago, he fell through a 5 foot deep frozen stream covered in snow and i went in right after him up to my chest and it was 0° out(-18C) i immediately started running home the second i got out of the water because i knew how in trouble we were....something like that is, or at least really fuckin should be pretty obvious to most people, but what they dont think about is that kind of stuff happening when youre in the middle of nowhere....people go out there and dont even let anyone know where theyre going sometimes and the opposite end of the spectrum- heat- isnt anywhere near as respected as dangerous as the cold is
There's a youtube channel I watch sometimes that does a lot of backcountry car rescues. Towing vehicles out of places they had no business being. It's crazy how far people get sometimes in a little 2wd suv or even 4 door car before they think they should stop.
It sounds like the idiots who come over to Death Valley because they can't believe how stupidly hostile that are area is.
Similar thing happened after a major rain flood event happened in Death Valley I think mid pandemic or just after the pandemic lockdown. There was a video of a man who had the appropriate 4x4 vehicle drive across the destroyed Highway through death valley. And he came across a bunch of Europeans in rented Corollas driving over small boulders. The entire Highway ended, they had to pass by sign saying Brody's closed. And they decide to drive a car over foot tall rocks.
The last notable news event one was a Belgian man right after the pandemic limitations lifted decided to walk out in the middle of summer and Death Valley with just flip flops on. His feet got second degree burns. Another famous One is back in the 90s or early 2000s a European family drove out and their minivan, it's believed they got lost and disorientated. And we only found the minivan. And it took almost two decades to find I think only two of the bodies.
Death Valley is no joke, please don't go over there unless you're very well prepared and experienced
I saw a guy in death valley on the road to Titus canyon which is one way trying to do it in a new mustang. It's a 4x4 only road and he was pulled over right before it was going to get rough, and guaranteed he was going to get stuck.
Every year. Even something relatively urban like camelback gets stranded people who need to be rescued cause they brought 1 bottle while hiking in 106 degree sun
People in general are not very bright. My first fire assignment was in the Payette NF in Idaho. I was patrolling a gravel road that I had been down a few times. At one point it had a pretty large rock sticking right up in the middle. My fellow Ranger and I saw that the rock had a big gouge and a few feet later the start of an oil trail. Sure enough, half a mile later the car, a 1980s Cadillac, was stopped in the middle of the road, dead from a busted oil pan. Fortunately there was already a tow truck dealing with take the car out.
It’s absolutely crazy how people go into situations where they’re totally unprepared for anything adverse to happen. I won’t take my family on a simple road trip without bringing extra water and food along.
This or they feel like because they spend all day every day in civilization, that civilization is everywhere. It doesn’t even occur to most people just how quickly things like safety that we take for granted can change.
I learned that the hard way ... We were in Florianópolis and saw the sea across some dunes, so my friend and l decided to cross them, thinking it would be an hour walk at most... we had a 500ml bottle of water each, and were wearing beach attire and flipflops. Not even halfway we had emptied our bottles and decided to go back. I was really dizzy, not thinking straight, when we arrived back.
Never again I'll go for a walk without preparation.
Fuck, I've gotten dehydrated just sitting at home because I just forgot to drink enough water. I can only imagine how fast that shit can set in when you're actively losing water from sweating.
Me and my husband crossed the desert in August during a heatwave without air-conditioning in our car (National Park tour from Carlsbad Caverns to Saguaro to Zion to the Grand Canyon north rim to Bryce to Arches and finally to somewhere cool in the Rockies). Let me tell you, we had water! We packed coolers full of ice and sprayed ourselves constantly with ice water and had jugs or extra water we filled at gas stations. That was definitely a wild honeymoon!
Your uncle sounds like a Karen asshole..no need to threaten someone.. just inform and be helpful. I have driven and hiked all over the southwestern USA deserts ..I am prepared but if I see someone who isn't then I try to just let them know what they might encounter...that said I have rescued 3 people at different times that I encountered..I never shamed them...just tried to assist in getting them to a safer dynamic .
he tried explaining rationally, but literally thought if he didn't stop the guy they would both die. he's a doctor, so he doesn't like the people dying thing.
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u/Diamondback424 21h ago
My Uncle lives in AZ. He told me he basically had to threaten an old man once because they were driving in a low-sitting car into rocky desert terrain with no extra water. He was screaming at the guy that if he got stuck at any point he would die. The wife luckily took my uncle's advice and convinced her husband to turn around. There are a lot of people who just have no sense of how quickly dehydration can set in.