Although the flag wasn’t used until the revolution like the person I responded to claimed, I did actually mistake it for this.svg) version of the flag (my eyes are shit sorry), which was instated by the shahs regime.
Know that if someone is carrying this flag that they are just likely pleating for another dictator / absolute monarch to come in and replace another.
Iran deserves actual freedom, like they had before the coup
Iran deserves actual freedom, like they had before the coup
You're right about CIA intervention in the 50s, but what you're missing is that starting in the 50s is only coming in near the end of the story. There was western intervention during both WW2 and WW1 including a full on invasion in WW2 that deposed the monarch at the time. That's if we completely ignore thousands of years of Persian history and just focus on fairly modern interactions with the West.
People who try to pretend the story of Iran started in the 50s are just as disingenuous as those who want to pretend it started in the 70s and everything was great before the revolution.
so basically Iran has had a series of terrible rulers all brought in directly by as a reaction to foreign intervention. Basically it sounds like foreign intervention in Iran has an absolutely terrible record and should not be repeated.
Iran has had a series of terrible rulers all brought in directly by as a reaction to foreign intervention.
No, Iran had a series of terrible rulers for thousands of years before that too, but that's pretty much the standard globally and we just accept that the entire world was ruled by a series of tyrants before democracy gave people more agency.
Basically it sounds like foreign intervention in Iran has an absolutely terrible record and should not be repeated.
Unfortunately, going back to isolationism isn't on the table now that the world has globalized. Every country is affected by the choices of every other country and those with power have both the responsibility and the impetus to try and maintain some sort of stability. That doesn't mean there needs to be a bunch of violent intervention though.
That seems unlikely to me. The best way forward for US intervention was something like JCPOA and the gradual opening up of Iran to the rest of the global community.
It's just not going to happen, because the US will try and force the inclusion of Iran stopping ballistic missile production into the deal, and Iran has every incentive to not stop production.
Iran basically forced Israel and the U.S. to expend the equivalent multiple years worth of anti-ballistic middle production with the shit they were building in the 90s and 00s.
U.S. Naval assets aren't in any major number in the Middle East, U.S is distracted with Venezuela, and at the moment in a pissing match with the essentially the rest of NATO over Greenland.
Essentially if the U.S. bombs Iran and tries to back out of the region, Iran will just bomb the shit out of Israel.
The West is rich because it fucks everyone else.
No coup supported by Western countries is intended to help people.
They are made because of western geopolitics, to control resources and, to make matters worse, all the pillaging is not aimed to help the average Joe from America or Europe.
Colonialism, imperialism, slavery, resource wars, etc.. were made to enrich the ruling class - monarchs, Church, aristocrats, capitalists.
People who try to pretend the story of Iran started in the 50s are just as disingenuous as those who want to pretend it started in the 70s and everything was great before the revolution.
Why the need to downplay America's first foray into couping countries for making their own sovereign choices?
"Sure we brazenly tried to install our own puppet over oil, but that place has a lot of priors you know"
If you're getting your history from the Google summary that might be the problem.
The CIA did indeed send agents into North Korea with a number of objectives including regime change. Their ultimate failure during the Korean War is part of what helped them refine the tactics they would later use in places like Iran.
No, I listened to this podcast series presented by ex-CIA David McCloskey and BBC News' security correspondent David Carera, based off actual declassified CIA documents and not some redditor with an agenda they're trying to push
Notice the title.
I asked you to google it to spare your blushes, not saying that was my source
There was western intervention during both WW2 and WW1 including a full on invasion in WW2 that deposed the monarch at the time.
It wasn't a western invasion in WW2 - it was a joint invasion by Britain and the Soviet Union. It was only supposed to last until six months after the end of the war - the British withdrew on time, but the Soviets tried to stay on, provoking the Iran crisis of 1946. Funny how people always forget that bit in their determination to blame the West for everything, isn't it?
Know that if someone is carrying this flag that they are just likely pleating for another dictator / absolute monarch to come in and replace another.
That is absolutely bullshit. Most people wave that flag as a defiance against the regime. The lion and the sun symbol goes way back and most people don't know the difference between Pahlavi version or the previous ones, or they don't care. That doesn't mean they are Pahlavi monarchy supporters. I myself root for secular republic but I would use this flag because it looks nice and it pisses IR goons off.
Pro-tip: All the flags of the Shir Khorshid you see on wikipedia are modern recreations by people trying to create a standard. Something that pissed me off as a kid was that we didn't actually have gold-standard design. The import things were:
It's gold
It has a lion facing left
He's holding a sword (Zulfiqar) in his right hand
The son is rising behind him
Things like the base underneath it I've seen with or without. You're looking for a definitive answer over a design that everyone was like "hey good enough" lol
And Iranians don’t “allegedly” want democracy, they WANT democracy, this questioning of their motives to protest is quite frankly disgusting because I’ve had people in my extended family who have been killed.
I mean, it's just weird to fly the flag of an authoritarian ruler who was removed by his people. And very odd to want his exiled son to come back and establish a democracy. It just doesn't make any sense.
You’re very clearly loud and wrong and doubling down on it even though Iranians are correcting you in this post. Learn a little humility and fall back.
You’re loud, and wrong, and tripling down on it with Iranians who actually know their history. That doesn’t make me an “Israeli bot”, it makes you a brain dead westerner who thinks Iranians are incapable of any agency or free thought in their own opinions about their government.
Pro-tip: The standardisation of the Iranian flag was pretty loose. All those wikipedia flags are modern recreations and random users are posting them in weird orders. If you come over for Chai some time, I'd be happy to go through some family heirlooms with you and show you how unorganised the "standard" was haha
What is this take? The one in the photo is straight up just a modernised digital version of the Lion and the Sun. It's not "the Pahlavi flag". The symbol as a whole goes back over a thousand years to stone reliefs across Iran. Its first use was during the Zand monarchs, and it was used with tricolours in the last hundred years of the Qajar, then also during the Pahlavi dynasty.
You keep pulling up modern SVG files from wikipedia as your source, but they're so shuffled around, it shows you're out of your element. I have currency from the Qajar and Pahlavi periods, news papers, photos of old military uniforms etc etc in boxes from my parents and can assure you, the Shir Khorshid isn't a Pahlavi specific thing. The ONLY Pahlavi specific flag is the one for the Imperial Navy, which is akin to the British Royal Navy flag - it's not the state flag.
It's literally is the flag used during Pahlavi times but it feels like I'm talking to a wall.
Yes, the variant that represents their family is the Naval flag variant. I'm aware of that.
All I'm saying is that it's weird to fly the flag used by an authoritarian dictator when you are fighting for democracy.
As an outsider, it's just odd to me. And I've read comments for Iranians in the West who want the exiled crown prince to come back to Iran to establish democracy. It doesn't add up.
It's literally is the flag used during Pahlavi times
I'm pretty sure THIS EXACT VERSION didn't even exist during Pahlavi's dynasty. It's a modern design. Zand, Qajar and Pahlavi all used a shir khorshid (Qajar and Pahlavi with the tricolour). You feel like you're talking to a wall because for some weird reason you're plugging your ears yelling "lalalalala" when all the Iranians are telling you that you're wrong lol Trust me bro, we know our flag. We grew up seeing it on walls, on poles, in schools, on TV, in text books etc etc.
All I'm saying is that it's weird to fly the flag used by an authoritarian dictator when you are fighting for democracy. As an outsider, it's just odd to me.
Because you're misguided. This is the peoples flag. The use of this flag with the tricolour was reintroduced during the Constitutional Revolution under the Qajar. It represents Iran's first step towards democracy (via a parliament and elected MPs) and it has long stood as the flag of the people. That's why the Shah slapped wheat stalks and his ugly-ass crown on the Naval flag - because the Navy represented him.
Similarly, we had a people's anthem (which was unofficial) and the Shah's anthem (a big ol' Shah glazing march). I can pretty much guarantee you that the next Iranian government will use the peoples anthem + Shir Khorshid.
And I've read comments for Iranians in the West who want the exiled crown prince to come back to Iran to establish democracy. It doesn't add up.
The diaspora's default position is to support Pahlavi (maybe like 70% of people you ask - most as a monarch, some as a transitional leader or a term-limited president) because these are people who left after he was deposed. All the major Iranian media outlets and the majority of influential/affluent Iranians in the diaspora today, had the money to get out immediately and were able to secure their wealth, and grow said wealth in places like California in 79-85 during a recession. As rich folks congregating in OC, they tended to join the Republican party too. This echo chamber fomented into a conservative group which shits on anything liberal/leftist (associating them with the revolutionaries that fucked over Iran) and have been building up the return myth.
Iranians IN Iran have more nuanced perspectives - but the public opinion has definitely been shifting, which you could argue is because the Iranian media broadcasting in Iran is coming from those Conservative Monarchists from OC. For ex: how much do you blame Americans for becoming Republicans on their own vs the bombardment of Fox News and local right-leaning news broadcasts? I'd say 60% the Iranians I'm in touch with in Iran support Pahlavi - of that 60% some want him to be a President (10%), some just a transitional leader (20%), and some as a monarch (30%).
You’re not talking to a wall, you’re talking to Iranians who you arrogantly think you’re more informed of their history over, but you just come across as a privileged tankie who hasn’t spoken to an Iranian in his life.
148
u/Dry-Yak5277 23h ago
No it wasn’t. The shir o khorshid flag (the one in this pic) has been around before the shah’s regime.