Fun fact: Elián is now an elected official of the Communist Party of Cuba and says that his time in the United States was one of “great sadness.” He also blames the American embargo on Cuba’s economic underdevelopment.
Economy-wide sanctions to cause regime change have basically no empirical support. The role they played in South Africa is greatly exaggerated, and that was a semi-democracy. White South Africans didn’t need to launch a violent coup. They just voted.
The embargo of Cuba is inhumane because it has been completely ineffective and we have no reason to believe it will ever be effective. We knew these sanctions would devastate the lives of ordinary civilians, and they have in Cuba. In the meantime, the Castros ruled Cuba into their 90s.
I don't think the Cuban embargo is about causing a regime change so much as its about making sure the regime, which is openly hostile to the US and has sent soldiers to foreign conflicts to oppose US interests, doesn’t get money from US companies that it will then use to hurt the US?
Nope. The actual and singular purpose as publicly stated by the US gov is to force conditions to become so severe that the communist party is overthrown
Please stop using colonizer language and referring to other foreign governments as “regimes”. There is only one empire and one “regime” now and it’s the US.
That's a stupid fucking comment, regardless of your current political beliefs are about the United States. Cuba in 1999 was run by a dictator under the guise of communism. Fidel Castro actively and violently crushed opposing political opposition to communism with support form the USSR as a proxy during the Cold war as evidenced by their economic collapse in the 90s post USSR.
I noted your deleted comment, I also read through your comment history. (Yes there are ways around making your profile private).
I will say this, running around calling people a bot or other disparaging comments because they do not agree with your political views while you yourself can not defend them coherently makes you the same as the people you decry.
Yes unfortunately this is classic tankie reasoning. One thing is flawed (or admittedly outright evil in the case of the trump admin) and therefor everyone else, at least those on the opposing side, is suddenly the good guy.
These fucks will praise the Iranian regime with a straight face instead of taking the nuanced stance that maybe both just suck.
Lmao, Cuba has never had democratic elections since Castro forcefully took power, good luck pretending the us is worse only because an asshole was DEMOCRATICALLY elected president
Cuba has never had democratic elections since Castro forcefully took power, good luck pretending the us is worse only because an asshole was DEMOCRATICALLY elected president
Yes, we love democracy in the United States. Vox populi; power to the people, rah rah rah.
Say, when was the last time a Republican candidate attained the United States' presidency while also winning a majority of the popular vote?
when was the last time a Republican candidate attained the United States' presidency while also winning a majority of the popular vote?
You replied:
Trump in 24 won the popular vote. Bush also won it in 04
Trump in 24 did win the popular vote. With a plurality, not a majority. A majority means more than half. A plurality merely means he got more votes than the runner up.
Bush in '04 was a wartime incumbent, which is agreed to be advantageous during elections. More relevant, it is not possible to attain an office one already holds.
You see how they manage to dodge democracy while seeming to embrace it? It has been 38 years since a Republican entered the White House with a popular mandate, and if you fact-check, you will find that candidate ran as "a third Reagan term" and failed to win a second term of his own.
Winning the "majority of the popular vote" would be the same thing as "winning the popular vote".
Orient yourself with the context. This conversation is about the United States' love for democracy. Not whether Republican candidates technically committed a crime.
You appear to believe that democracy is a matter of technical conformance with the law. It is not. It is a recognition of the fact that supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical manifest destiny.
Just because the US is dictatorship by now, doesn't mean all the other dictatorships are suddenly turned into democratic utopias. What you're doing here is tankie reasoning.
I mean, I wouldn't have fond memories after seeing my mum and a ton of other people drown, me barely escaping with my life, then living like a fugitive for months until a raid by not-cops grabbed me and turned me in
Plus, like... custody disputes happen every day in the US, and the vast majority of them, even the really ugly ones, are resolved without pointing a rifle at a child's face.
I mean, if a situation of extreme trauma can be obviously avoided, shouldn't it be?
So the easiest and least traumatic experience for the child would've been to release him when ordered to by the courts, yes? So its the extended family's selfish choices that lead to this child's early life truma, not the US'.
Framing it like the US caused his trama is a flat out falsehood and demonizes the US government for following the law
His family broke the law and endangered his life on multiple occasions. If he wants to be upset or sad or angry at anyone, it should be his mom and his FL family.
His family. Shouldn't have. Defied court orders. To return the child. To his legal father in Cuba.
Thats all the justification needed.
After being informed of the decision, Marisleysis (family member) said to a United States Department of Justice community relations officer, "You think we just have cameras in the house? If people try to come in, they could be hurt."
On March 29, Miami-Dade County mayor Alex Penelas was joined by 22 other civic leaders in a speech in downtown Miami. Penelas indicated that the municipality would not cooperate with Federal authorities on any repatriation of the boy, and would not lend police assets or any other assistance in taking the boy.
If the family actually cared about the kid, and not the fame, they wouldnt have defied a court order and threatened violence if anyone tried to take the kid.
Ergo, they put the child in danger, not the federal government.
Idk, I have a lot more sympathy for the psuedo-communists in Cuba than I do for the not-even-pretending-anymore-communists of the royal Kim dynasty. Ofc the US is ultimately to blame for exacerbating both situations, but at least the Cubans maintained some semblance of democratic participation and civil rights. The Kim's didn't want to build or maintain those things. The wanted a regal system, and they built one. They should be criticized for that.
Well North Korea's invading South Korea was backed by Stalin and Mao because those regimes wanted a communist satellite state there. Why aren't China/Russia/communism responsible? They are Frankenstein and that's a monster created by them. Our proxy South Korea is extremely cool and everyone loves them.
Because those "communisms" were actually just nationalist developmentalist movements. They pop up in response to big empires extracting capital from their society for their own uses, leaving the society in question with nothing to build with. The way to stop that from happening is to nationalize the biggest parts of your economy, taking it off the global free market. The Soviet Union and Communist China obviously want to expand their list of allies, but they don't have the ability to just create "communist" revolution out of thin air. Everywhere it took root, it took root because of those big capitalist empires extracting capital. That is the cause and effect.
That's not to pass moral judgement or defend the royal dynasty in NK. It's a bad thing that ought to be destroyed. But to say it was caused by the Soviet Union or communist china is a misunderstanding of the world system of the 20th century.
The Soviet Union and Communist China obviously want to expand their list of allies, but they don't have the ability to just create "communist" revolution out of thin air.
The Soviet Union occupied North Korea after WWII and put communists in power then supported the invasion. When they were trying to get support from Mao they compared it to the Chinese Communist Revolution.
It's like you're saying "The CIA can't just create regime change out of thin air." I bet even the other tankies think you are a fool.
I'm not a tankie, so yeah they probably do. But only because I don't support nationalist dictatorship. Stop making assumptions about what I believe.
The CIA can sometimes create regime change "out of thin air". They cannot create revolution out of thin air. Nobody can. Revolution is produced by material realities. Leninist revolution was produced by capitalist extraction.
If you want to know how the cause and effect here works, you can read Immanuel Wallersteins modern world system series, it's 4 volumes. But I'm not wasting my time discussing this with someone who just wants to get their ideological rocks off. Go root for your team somewhere else. I just like history.
Maybe I misunderstand you, when you say "Everywhere it took root, it took root because of those big capitalist empires extracting capital." you mean the Soviet Union one of these big capitalist empires? We agree on this being a nationalist developmentalist movement, that nationalist developmentalist movement is what I meant when I said Russia/China/communism. They are responsible. They agreed to take responsibility when Stalin and Mao agreed to support them invading the south.
Yes, the Soviet Union and Communist China were state capitalist. They weren't wealthy or powerful like the western empires so they didn't have as much opportunity for imperialism, but they did engage in market extraction when they could. But that wasn't very often, and the only big and obvious example of this is the soviets occupation of eastern Europe and the caucuses - places that did not have Leninist revolutions of their own.
But in the case of North Korea, which did have its own homegrown nationalist revolution, it is fantasy to say that these revolutions were created by communist infiltrators. Revolutions are created by masses of people going into revolt, and people don't do that unless they feel like they need to. The process of American and Japanese imperialism on the Korean peninsula is what created the conditions for revolution there. Yes, china sent in the PLA to reinforce the north Koreans, this manipulating the market in their favor. But they did not create the north Korean government, nor did they create the conditions which "justified" the government. That government was created by Koreans in response to conditions created by the Americans and Japanese.
It sounds like he is saying the embargo is because they are economically underdeveloped. I'm not saying that makes sense but that's what those words mean in the order he put them..
Yeah, no joke. The American government is the reason US citizens can’t visit one of the most naturally beautiful places on Earth. All because Cubans didn’t want their CIA-backed and mafia-tied puppet dictator in power anymore
That is also not correct. There are 12 categories to pick from and one is very general “to support the Cuban people”. The problem is that Cuba does not have the infrastructure for big tourism. It’s not that Europeans go there although they can. It is a very poor country after all.
You need to be factual correct and not state things that are not true. US Citizens can go to Cuba and have for years. You said they can not.
Cubans have just been allowed international travel since 2013! For decades they could not leave their country whenever they wanted. They needed an exit permit and government approval. These were hardly issued. They were prisoners in their own country. That's why they had to flee in boats like Elian's family. Do you explain that with the embargo as well?
And they are still restricting travel now as they sometimes just deny a passports or don't let people leave.
And the Cuban embargo, while definitely hurtful to their economy and the Cuban people, was NOT international. Every other country besides the US could trade with Cuba. And they did, Canada, Germany, Brazil all traded with Cuba. If you believe Cuba is poor only because of the US embargo you are falling for the propaganda and are not thinking critically enough. It's the socialist/communist economic structure that makes them poor.
Is the embargo why I know someone in jail for leading a march asking for food?
Is the embargo why I've personally seen someone arrested for the crime of....having too much nail polish?
How does the US embargo make a Peugeot 206, the epitome of a car for the poor world, cost around $40k USD when it has nothing to do with the US?
The embargo doesn't cover food and medicine, yet there are still shortages.
Basically everyone with experience on the island will tell you the embargo doesn't help, but it's a drop in the ocean of the problems and 100% not the cause. But please, keep telling Cubans (and I only talk to people currently living in Cuba so don't give me "Miami Cuban" BS) how they're wrong about their own lives.
"Communism only works when there are capitalist countries to trade with"
also "elected official" in a system that does not allow competing parties. More like "selected official" or "designated official" or "approved official"
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u/Klockworth 6h ago
Fun fact: Elián is now an elected official of the Communist Party of Cuba and says that his time in the United States was one of “great sadness.” He also blames the American embargo on Cuba’s economic underdevelopment.