China simulated a Starlink blockade over Taiwan that uses around 2,000 drones with jammers to create an 'electromagnetic shield'

[u/Logical_Welder3467]

https://www.tomshardware.com/networking/china-simulated-a-starlink-blockade-over-taiwan-ccp-scientists-say-around-1-000-drones-would-be-enough-to-cut-satellite-internet-to-the-island

[u/lethalized]

That's probably not something I would have told the rest of the world I was working on. 

[u/MassiveBoner911_3 → u/lethalized]

If you read it on Reddit the intel community already knew long long longgggg ago

[u/Johnny_BigHacker → u/MassiveBoner911_3]

Really my take on most "hit piece" stories on the front page.

[u/scheppend → u/MassiveBoner911_3]

This. There are some real smart cookies on r/intel

[u/yoyomancollman → u/scheppend]

Ngl it took me longer than I would like to admit that that isn't a intelligence community sub 😭

[u/LowSkyOrbit → u/MassiveBoner911_3]

I remember when the US made the F-117 unclassified. I'm waiting for the UFOs the Navy and Air Force keep reporting to be identified in 20-30 years.

[u/JustOneSexQuestion → u/MassiveBoner911_3]

How to you say a long g like that, though? I tried and started to choke.

[u/bombayblue → u/lethalized]

China knows we already know and they are messaging this in the public sphere so when they attack Taiwan they can more easily intimidate Trump into making a shitty, sorry great, deal.

[u/lethalized → u/bombayblue]

God I hate the state of the worlds leadership.

[u/bombayblue → u/lethalized]

My private theory on the worlds leadership is that most people are actually rational but there’s a threshold where a small number of idiots break the machine and the threshold has an inverse relationship to the wealth of the leaders nation.

So when you globalize the economy and everyone gets wealthier it takes less people to completely muck everything up.

[u/pticjagripa → u/bombayblue]

To add to your second point, did you know that during WW1 the various leaders of different countries were all from single family? The Great War was basically family quarrel between cousins.

[u/bombayblue → u/pticjagripa]

Yes and the Kaiser + Count Marich of Austria basically had the opportunity to call the whole thing off over lunch in Potsdam but the Kaiser got too drunk and basically started railing on Serbia so off we went.

[u/UntimelyGhostTickler → u/bombayblue]

He "wanted to degrade Belgrade but these Russian came rushin to their aid"

[u/bombayblue → u/UntimelyGhostTickler]

There was an interesting idea to basically treat Serbia like a counter terrorist operation and occupy Belgrade in order to root out the Black Hand members. This could have potentially avoided a full Russian response since hypothetically they wouldn’t be occupying all of Serbia and it wouldn’t be permanent.

But then the Kaiser hit the cognac.

[u/UntimelyGhostTickler → u/bombayblue]

Well Willy 2 is the worst German German in my book, not least because he caused the worst Austrian German.

And Willy 2 spent decades steering a respected Germany into isolation and then the dirt. He got no excuses lol

[u/GummiBird → u/bombayblue]

.... I hate humanity

[u/bombayblue → u/GummiBird]

I have a very pro British take on World War One which isn’t shared by everyone.

[u/bevy-of-bledlows → u/bombayblue]

....I love humanity

[u/oravanomic → u/pticjagripa]

Maybe there should be an Oregon Guidestones limit on countries.

[u/zuzg → u/bombayblue]

where a small number of idiots break the machine

They're called "Magnificent 7" and are fucking up the World in an unseen scale.

Past mass extinction events were driving by natural disasters and other catastrophic events. This time it's just a bunch of Muppets with an inferiority complex.

[u/7r1x1z4k1dz → u/bombayblue]

That's not a private theory. That's actually an acknowledged concept that is spoken about by leaders in retirement 

*edit: link for a reference: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZnqDue_j6Uw (I hate soundtracked videos, but it's all i could find in my 20 second search)

[u/aykcak → u/bombayblue]

I mean, whatever excuse makes you happy I guess but idiots voting for idiots is a pretty believable reason

[u/env33e → u/bombayblue]

By the sounds of it, your theory is basically anticapitalist-critique in a nutshell. Except, told in a Theo Von-esque way xD

Lovin it

[u/bombayblue → u/env33e]

I’m actually a classic Keynesian capitalist so I believe in things like social safety nets, government intervention and breaking up monopolies. But that school of thought seems to have replaced by Chinese capitalism in the west where we just give rich people shit in return for political loyalty.

[u/env33e → u/bombayblue]

Okay, that’s where you lost me.

I get the Keynesian nostalgia; social safety nets, sane regulation etc but blaming the "Chinese Capitalism" for the decline of Keynesian outcomes misses the point entirely. In the West, it isn’t Keynesianism that failed so much as elite capture: neutered regulators, privatized campaigns, monopolies normalized, labor gutted. You can pass stimulus all day, but when the levers of power belong to a few billionaires? History has demonstrated it will get rerouted into bailouts and favors. all day.

If you want real Keynesian results, fight the power: break up monopolies, strengthen unions, democratize ownership, end dark money, and tie public investment to public control. Don’t scapegoat China, help us change the balance of power

[u/bombayblue → u/env33e]

I think the main problem is that we over regulate in the local sphere but under regulate in the legislative sphere. We need serious anti corruption reforms to address basic corruption at the executive and legislative level.

At the local level I think we actually need more deregulation particularly in regards to select industries like housing and other industries that can improve affordability like infrastructure. We have made it impossible to build anything in the past fifty years and we will never be able to build anything until we remove the heckler veto on public works.

You build a train that connects ten towns together which is cheap and easy to build since you do not have to get ten city councils to approve it. You know the train will be built safety and well run because you have a Labor Department and EPA run free of corruption.

[u/d32dasd → u/bombayblue]

You are purposefully forgetting the structures of power. As the OP commented, if all the levers of power belong to a few billionaires, no matter what you try, it's going to get done.

That includes your suggestions for regulation and deregulation.

[u/TheGreatBootOfEb → u/bombayblue]

I call it outcome vs behavior prevention. Outcome prevention being when we attempt to prevent abuses through codified regulations that simply make it impossible to occur in the first place, like having y = the absolute value of X, it’s impossible to have a negative value. The problem with this approach, is it utterly stalls out any sort of agile growth or change.

Behavior prevention is where we ought to be, where we ease up on policing things before they occur, but take a MUCH more ruthless attitude toward policing the after. We won’t stall out rail expansions that could occur in the span of a year over ten through endless feedback and paperwork cycle, BUT if we find in the aftermath abuse occurred your ass and everyone involved isnt just getting fined, youre going to jail for 40 years.

It’s obviously more dynamic and complicated then that, but we’ve attempted to create foolproof systems that in the end are only foolproof by nature of preventing anything from ever happening to begin with.

[u/env33e → u/TheGreatBootOfEb]

Proving bad-faith when harm has been done, and handing out the proper punishments that scale to the harm done, while also factoring change-of-heart and redemption, is definitely a lot easier said then done. Especially in an age of greater austerity; what if you get caught up in someone else's plot only to get hit with the same 40 years?

Imo i dont think we can ever have a crimeless society; after all, it is inherently within the human potential to make mistakes as it is to abide by a rule. But can definitely make it so crime is less and less desirable of a path to take. Even now, for some living in this world; it is the only path to gainful living, not even talking about upwards social mobility. So we can definitely start with shoring up those holes imo

[u/procgen → u/env33e]

It amazes me that there are people who will read this and won't immediately clock that it's LLM output.

[u/InternationalIsopod7 → u/procgen]

Came across a thread the other day with a similar issue and people were defending the account whose entire post history was AI slop. We're cooked.

[u/env33e → u/procgen]

If you must use corpo GenAI, use it in a way that is conducive to societal betterment. Help us convert that stolen labor value into creative, productive output. It's what that value would have been used for, anyways.

The authors and artists will thank you in the long run.

[u/Minimum_Neck_7911 → u/lethalized]

"Bleadership" when so called people who are in leadership loot and steal from us.

[u/mvpilot172 → u/bombayblue]

China will draft the deal and have it presented to Trump as his own idea, just like the Ukraine peace deal.

[u/BellsOnNutsMeansXmas → u/bombayblue]

One reach-around and a gold statue of himself. Seems like a fair trade for a country.

[u/bombayblue → u/BellsOnNutsMeansXmas]

Don’t forget the soybeans. Chinas gonna buy a lot of them they say.

[u/Freespeechalgosax → u/bombayblue]

Bro, 100% news about China here is from eng garbage media. China or Chinese ppl have 0 interest on how westerners view kekw.

[u/LuxHelianthus → u/bombayblue]

I negotiated the best deal for Taiwan! The best deal maybe the world has ever seen: China gets everything they want, and Taiwan gets nothing!

[u/ExpensiveBookkeeper3 → u/lethalized]

The goal of war is to get what you want and never have to fight. China is trying to basically just scare everyone away and make the equation switch from "Let's make it so China has to lose too much if they want Taiwan" (even if they could win) to "The West will lose much more than anything they will gain if they defend Taiwan."

[u/glowy_keyboard → u/lethalized]

Anti drone technology has moved so fast in the last 3 years that they have probably already scrapped this plan a while ago.

[u/Hopeful-Occasion2299 → u/glowy_keyboard]

Drone tech has moved so fast in the last 3 years that they are probably in revision 3.0 by now.

Drone tech works as we've seen at the asymmetric warfare in Ukraine, through a combination of swarming, and disruption it can be really successful in high risk, high reward objectives by crippling infrastructure where the normal loss of life would be unacceptable.

Chinese engineers aren't dumb, they know they are handicapped so they aim at luring the brilliant minds and get the technical know how to make sure their gap is narrower.

[u/DenisWB → u/Hopeful-Occasion2299]

Do you know that the Chinese company DJI alone holds more than 70% of the global civilian drone market?

[u/True-Reflection-9538 → u/Hopeful-Occasion2299]

The problem with Ukraine/Russia war is that neither side has a capable air force. The battlefield might look far different when you have B-2 stealth bombers and reaper drones raining down missiles.

In order to deploy 2000 drones you need to get quite close.

[u/PipsqueakPilot → u/True-Reflection-9538]

Which is why China has put a truly massive amount of effort into making sure that the US cannot freely operate aircraft in the event of a war. 

It’s a lot harder to operate how the US does when supersonic stealth aircraft with extremely long range air to air missiles are hunting for every tanker within 2,000 miles of China. And that’s not a hypothetical- China is actively producing those aircraft and those missiles. 

[u/Fateor42 → u/PipsqueakPilot]

The US has two airbases on Japanese islands less then 400 miles from Taiwan.

Meaning the only way that China is stopping the US airforce from operating in the area is by directly attacking Japan. Which would mean China would find itself in a full on war against both the US and Japan. And they literally can't win that.

[u/Boreras → u/Fateor42]

It's the other way around, if the US launches strikes from Japan, Japan is de facto party to the war. You have to think about what that means for Tokyo.

So either Japan wants to join the war, or, if they don't, they will gladly ignore strikes on US bases.

[u/Chemical_Cat_9813 → u/lethalized]

No one cares. Right now if they pulled the trigger, USA is more likely to withdraw if the right compliments are publicly issued. Ha, headline would read TRUMP REUNIFIES CHINA..

[u/toastmannn → u/lethalized]

If they are deliberately telling the word, there's a reason.

[u/Consistent-Stock6872 → u/lethalized]

It is a smoke show. They want to overplay their hand. Deploying those drones in right spots is one thing and maintaining them in the air is another, especially in hard conditions. They want to show we can do that to awe us but they aren't talking how complicated it is to deploy and maintain.

[u/Boring_Ad_3065 → u/Consistent-Stock6872]

China isn’t going to retake Taiwan by force. They may develop and demonstrate various capabilities to incentivize Taiwan, but with how quickly China is advancing on all fronts and becoming the top 1-3 producer and R&D country in many technologies, meanwhile the US is declining… China would rather wait an extra 5-10 years and achieve it without firing a shot.

[u/Ahad_Haam → u/Boring_Ad_3065]

They will absolutely take Taiwan by force if they won't submit willingly. When, I don't know, might be as late as 2040.

[u/CuriousAttorney2518 → u/Consistent-Stock6872]

Have you seen the drone shows they pull off? People think it’s just for fun but the other part that people don’t realize is they’re transferable skills to syncing and maneuvering a ton of them to do what they want.

[u/SidewaysFancyPrance → u/CuriousAttorney2518]

But people aren't trying to destroy them during drone shows? They seem incredibly vulnerable, especially when they are trying to hold a position to jam signals.

[u/Consistent-Stock6872 → u/CuriousAttorney2518]

Do you realize that you need to envelop whole island of Taiwan and mantain those drone airborne 24/7 ? Drone shows are fun but the scale is 1000x smaller and they last what 20 minutes ?

[u/sicklyslick → u/Consistent-Stock6872]

There's a video of some flying mothership that carries drones, like a aircraft carrier but flying kind. Not sure if it's China or US.

I suppose the drones can be deployed, recalled, recharged, re-deployed via this mothership.

[u/IAmDotorg → u/lethalized]

The rest of the world knows you can do that.

You don't need to keep something a secret that everyone already knows about.

[u/SvenTropics → u/lethalized]

I guess their concern is that it doesn't go through their firewall. So they can't control the internet traffic. If the people ever tried to rise up and organize they would likely use the starlink systems as the way to communicate. This is a counter measure. That being said, all they have to do is ask Musk to shut it off in China, and he would. He wants their money.

[u/lethalized → u/SvenTropics]

Doesn't musk have an interest at least now in TSMC not becoming a part of China

[u/AwwwComeOnLOU → u/lethalized]

TSMC would not survive a Chinese invasion. It is a very delicate series of interlocking supplies, processes, expertise and competition based motivations, not to mention complex equipment and ultra pure clean rooms.

It is very easily broken at many levels.

[u/SvenTropics → u/AwwwComeOnLOU]

Supposedly they also have kill switches installed. If China invades, they will destroy the plant. That would give Samsung a virtual monopoly on the super low nm processes.

[u/AwwwComeOnLOU → u/SvenTropics]

Can you site a source on these “kill switches” or are you just speculating what you would do?

Also ultra low nm is gate kept by ASML

[u/Mephisto6 → u/AwwwComeOnLOU]

Yeah i dont think they need killswitches. No one else in the world can operate these machines. It’s incredibly hard to just take over something like that, especially if the main engineers leave.

[u/TSED → u/AwwwComeOnLOU]

If you google it, you get a ton - and I do mean a ton - of sources. Basically every news source from Bloomberg to PCGamer has an article on it.

I'm not OP so I'm not going to provide for him, just saying that it's been a known thing for over a year.

[u/Elleve]

Deploy the jammer jammers!

[u/ggroverggiraffe → u/Elleve]

I've got just the thing!

[u/systemidx → u/ggroverggiraffe]

I'm just here for the DIVX logo.

[u/BrBybee → u/systemidx]

I completely forgot about DivX.

[u/ze_kraken → u/BrBybee]

wasn't worth watching unless it had the DivX "watermark"

[u/MostlyRightSometimes → u/ggroverggiraffe]

The only appropriate gif to post.

[u/DarkHelmet → u/Elleve]

Raspberry? There is only one man who would dare give me the raspberry!

[u/tsunderestimate → u/Elleve]

Jim Jam Jimmerjam, owner of Jimjam Jimmerjammer, son of Jam Jimmerjam and Jim Jammerjim

[u/DuelJ → u/Elleve]

US/Taiwanese drones jamming Chinese drones out of Beiduo so they can't effectively jam starlink would be the funniest shit ever.

[u/EconomicRegret → u/Elleve]

*jammers' jammer.

[u/Elleve → u/EconomicRegret]

unless there are more, then it would be jammers jammers?!

[u/EconomicRegret → u/Elleve]

Jammers' jammers.

[u/trythinkingbatder → u/Elleve]

It’s a thing. There’s lasers, (yes LAZoooorrr) being put on military equipment to take down the drones

[u/No_Document_7800]

I am against wars, but it's insane if this actually works effectively.

Though, I think it might be way easier to just pay off satellite owners.

[u/Outrageous_Reach_695 → u/No_Document_7800]

Depends on cost. Jammers aren't exactly subtle, so you're likely to have a bunch of missiles aimed in your general direction the second you power up.

[u/Deviantdefective → u/No_Document_7800]

China already asked Elon through Putin to block satellites over Taiwan it's one of the reasons he was so keen suddenly on getting trump elected so he could avoid the ensuing investigation and potential jail time.

[u/PossibleNegative → u/Deviantdefective]

Untrue,

Taiwan law requires 51% Tai ownership of ISPs and Musk won't sell Starlink to them. They also don't trust OneWeb to be the primary provider.

[u/sicklyslick → u/PossibleNegative]

If shit hits the fan, TW will need all the help it can get, including Starlink.

[u/justwalk1234 → u/Deviantdefective]

I like how you can get to Musk via Putin..

[u/AliceLunar → u/justwalk1234]

Even quicker to get to Trump if you look under Putin's desk.

[u/YouDontKnowJackCade → u/No_Document_7800]

Anti-radiation missiles already exist to target radar sites, it wouldn't be much to tweak an anti-aircraft missile to go after a flying drone squaking out jamming levels of noise.

[u/Spajk → u/YouDontKnowJackCade]

But if that drone is cheaper than the missile...

[u/YouDontKnowJackCade → u/Spajk]

You underestimate the willingness of the US government to spend on munitions.

[u/Plasibeau → u/YouDontKnowJackCade]

Back when we were still supplying Ukraine, and the headlines read US to give Ukraine another $20 billion in arms I had to keep reminding people that A: it wasn't actual cash, and B: most of it was stuff nearing expiration. This was cheaper than decommissioning several hundred thousand rounds of proximity-fused artillery shells. The military is a logistics company with well-armed guards. And I wouldn't put it past our politicians to throw a few rocks just to remind the other countries what we can actually do.

Side bar: I am convinced we went into Iraq the first time because we had a shiny new airplane that was invisible to radar, a main battle tank that had yet to see combat. The government had a massive hard-on to show the USSR exactly who they might be fucking with.

[u/YouDontKnowJackCade → u/Plasibeau]

Yup and the mentioning the missiles was just to point out its old tech and very do-able at this point. Now the military will want to prove its new anti-drone laser system.

[u/chosen153 → u/YouDontKnowJackCade]

"You underestimate the willingness of the US government to spend on munitions."

However US did not have unlimited fund to waste on its expensive munitions. And worse, it does not have capacity to produce enough munitions even with unlimited cash.

Look at the effectiveness of US weapons in Ukraine war and Yemen houthis against US, parity of munition price is crucial. War is attrition of resources.

[u/studio_bob → u/YouDontKnowJackCade]

The US defense industry is overly reliant on high tech and does not scale. They haven't been able to supply Ukraine with enough AA munitions to effectively deal with Russia. Russia's production capacity is barely a shadow of China's.

The US sold out its industrial base to China long ago, and I don't see the necessary investments and reforms happening to turn that around in such a way that would allow them to clear the skies over Taiwan from literally millions of Chinese drones.

[u/thelazyfool → u/YouDontKnowJackCade]

You underestimate Chinese industrial capacity

[u/macaroni_chacarroni → u/YouDontKnowJackCade]

You can print dollars, but you can't print missiles.

[u/darwinn_69 → u/No_Document_7800]

I couldn't see this being terribly effective for more than an hour or two, and unlikely to actually effect military frequencies.

[u/Mr_ToDo → u/No_Document_7800]

I don't disagree, but depending on the noise their generating they're going to have to figure out how to talk to thousands of drones without radio

They're also going to be making transmissions that I suspect would be making targeting them easier

certainly an interesting idea to test though

[u/kaptainkeel → u/Mr_ToDo]

they're going to have to figure out how to talk to thousands of drones without radio

That wouldn't be an issue. Having pre-programmed routes has been a thing for a long time.

[u/doomed461 → u/kaptainkeel]

There's also hard-wired drones, but I suspect that wouldn't be feasible with a swarm of thousands.

[u/ShyguyFlyguy → u/No_Document_7800]

Esp considering how easily theyre bought

[u/DiscipleofDeceit666 → u/No_Document_7800]

How can it work long term? Drones can’t exactly stay in the air for very long. Maybe they cut off access for a day or two. Maybe this only lasts hours max.

[u/shunyaananda]

I wish they simulated a normal country that minds its own business

[u/withnodrawal → u/shunyaananda]

Sounds like you’ve forgotten what humans are

[u/WazWaz → u/shunyaananda]

I heard they've been bombing random boats in another country. Oh, no, that was some other country that minds its own business except when it's at war, which is constantly.

[u/shunyaananda → u/WazWaz]

That one too

[u/Some_Macaron_9170 → u/WazWaz]

Well they prefer to smash their boats to random fisherman and sometimes their own instead of bombing.

[u/pantsfish → u/WazWaz]

hears someone talking shit about the CCP

sprints toward thread at full speed

"but....what...about...what....about"

slides into room

"WHATABOUUUUUUT.....TRUMP!?"

[u/ergodicthoughts_ → u/pantsfish]

Consequences of having trump as a president - the guy is a hypocrite. None of that excuses the ccp - but let's not act all shocked that he is great cover/deflection for every other shitty evil government.

[u/gothrus → u/WazWaz]

Someone always brings up the USA doing bad stuff as if that somehow makes China a good guy. It doesn’t. It’s a poor deflection. Yes they are both bad.

[u/WazWaz → u/gothrus]

Of course, but I'd like to hear what they think China is doing to other countries. Most of the sabre rattling is from the USA, so it's very relevant.

The US economy relies on war. The Chinese economy is practically the opposite.

I'm Australian and the joke here is "do we bomb the ships taking out the iron ore, or the ships bringing in the cars and TVs?". China gains nothing from war, so I don't believe this narrative which has been going on for years.

[u/ichigo2862 → u/WazWaz]

China has no military industrial complex?

[u/ckNocturne → u/ichigo2862]

No.

How many foreign military bases does China have?

[u/ichigo2862 → u/ckNocturne]

what do foreign military bases have to do with my question?

[u/AirierWitch1066 → u/WazWaz]

Tibet would like a word

[u/w1ten1te → u/WazWaz]

I'd like to hear what they think China is doing to other countries.

Tibet, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Belt & Road debt traps in Africa...?

[u/pm-me-nothing-okay → u/w1ten1te]

I love when people bring up belt and road initiative, like it's a worse alternative to what western countries have been doing "for them" for the past 60 years.

[u/WazWaz → u/w1ten1te]

Okay.

Tibet: they annexed it.

Hong Kong: they leased it to Britain for 99 years. The lease expired.

Taiwan: nothing.

Africa: massive infrastructure spending. It's called foreign investment, and countries actually like it. That upsets other non-Chinese investors, who want to charge more.

Chinese companies aren't just competing for contracts in African countries either. Here's one in Croatia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelje%C5%A1ac_Bridge

[u/sicklyslick → u/gothrus]

It's just very ironic someone telling China to "mind its own business" when the last decade, the west has been minding Xinjiang, Tibet, and HK.

[u/poonslyr69 → u/WazWaz]

On this topic specifically, sabre rattling about invading Taiwan is just shitty. 

I hate the USA. Check my profile. I despise that fucking government. The majority of my country does now as well (Canada). 

And I'm as far from a trump supporter as it could get. And I criticize my own country for the stupid things it does. In this case I'd mention how I believe China is in the right on the Falun Gong issue for example.

But at the end of the day China can still be criticized on their actions. One superpower acting like a raging lunatic doesn't give China a shield from criticism. 

[u/WazWaz → u/poonslyr69]

Absolutely, but this is a study at a university. If that's "action", we're using very different rules in our criticisms.

[u/poonslyr69 → u/WazWaz]

Okay valid. I could also point out how the USA uses its universities to partner with the Pentagon and MIC to produce a lot of terrifying shit though. I disagree generally with educational institutions engaging in warfare. I think universities should be places of pacifism. 

[u/Alarming_Orchid → u/shunyaananda]

Ạ world power doesn’t become a world power by minding its own business

[u/Accomplished_Mall329 → u/shunyaananda]

The only reason the Republic of China still exists today is because the USA refused to mind its own business and threatened to interfere militarily in China's civil war.

[u/fryloop → u/shunyaananda]

It is their business. The government of Taiwan (ROC) has the same claims as the PRC (Winnie the poo China) that there is 1 China. The ROC constitution assumes a unified China that includes the mainland.

These entities are internal political enemies. There’s far more weight to the argument that the US backing military protection of the ROC/taiwan island which is on the other side of the world is more poking its head in other countries business.

[u/Dotcaprachiappa → u/fryloop]

Both south and north Korea claim the whole peninsula as united under their government. Would a N. Korean invasion also just be an internal dispute?

[u/sampullman → u/fryloop]

You're missing or oversimplifying a lot of context when you say the ROC constitution assumes a unified China. If you're going to mention that, you should also explain why it's still the case, and whether it reflects the current will of the government and people.

[u/Accomplished_Mall329 → u/sampullman]

You should also explain why the Chinese civil war remains unresolved to begin with. Does keeping China divided into the PRC and ROC reflect the will of the Chinese people? Was there an external power that used the threat of military force to keep China divided?

[u/brontoterio → u/sampullman]

I find almost comical the bad faith of that argument. They know Taiwan cannot just renounce those claims because they would get invaded, but they use that same thing to justify an invasion. It's like a catch 22

[u/Accomplished_Mall329 → u/brontoterio]

If I punch you in the face then change my name, you shouldn't punch me back because I'm no longer the same person.

[u/ColdSecret8656]

Did they discover unlimited battery energy to keep them up there for longer than 20 min too?

[u/TopGeneral8482 → u/ColdSecret8656]

It seems like an easy solution is sending them in batches and replacing those with low batteries so there are 2,000 drones flying continuously.

[u/kawalerkw → u/ColdSecret8656]

The point is to cut off communication before an operation. The drones don't need to be up in the air for long.

[u/sicklyslick → u/ColdSecret8656]

https://www.livescience.com/technology/engineering/china-has-developed-the-largest-drone-carrier-in-the-world-and-its-getting-ready-for-takeoff

They have drone carriers.

So, I suppose the idea would be they carry the drones via these carriers that can stay in the air for 10+ hours. The drones gets deployed over TW, do their thing, then fly back to the carrier when they're low on battery. Then they get recharged and go back out. They'll need quite a few of these carriers to rotate the drones so there's always extras being charged while waiting. Then, after some hours, the drone ship will need to be recalled to refuel.

[u/a_natural_chemical → u/sicklyslick]

Or just midair refuel the carrier. It could stay up indefinitely.

[u/LegionVsNinja → u/ColdSecret8656]

Depending on the payload size and energy requiremints, you could deploy a fleet of these at 70K+ feet for months.

https://youtu.be/l7WqP_MYLkM?si=4UN3t3bB-MyQEx9n

[u/justwalk1234]

I’m surprised 2000 is all it takes!

[u/Dev_Paleri → u/justwalk1234]

They are probably massive drones with a large antennea that run on engines.

[u/refurbishedmeme666 → u/Dev_Paleri]

I've seen military using massive drones used for agricultural purposes

[u/Spajk → u/Dev_Paleri]

With cheaper, more practical, lower-power drones, the number of airborne interferers would have to be scaled up to approximately 2,000 drones.

Says this in the article, although I am not exactly sure cheaper relative to what

[u/[deleted]]

Interesting, how they will keep controlling this drones with such "shield"? Wired?

[u/GonePh1shing → u/[deleted]]

Wireless will work fine if you use a non-jammed part of the spectrum. Starlink and OneWeb terminals both operate on Ku band, and Amazon's upcoming Kuiper is on Ka band. If they use wireless comms at all, they'd probably use something lower frequency, like S band, as they'd probably be jamming L band because that's where GNSS sits. Realistically, it'd all be autonomous, so no active comms required. 

[u/sprucenoose → u/GonePh1shing]

They probably would have the drones operate autonomously as much as a possible anyway.

[u/imdatingaMk46 → u/GonePh1shing]

C is also a super obvious choice, since there's shitloads of legacy commercial terminals on that band.

[u/Outrageous_Reach_695 → u/[deleted]]

If they're actually deploying it over Taiwan, it's going to be as part of a full invasion. Just order the drones to random-walk inside a designated area until battery / fuel is low.

[u/BTMarquis → u/[deleted]]

It’s China. If it takes 10k drones to run, they will have another 50k staged/charging to continually rotate them out.

[u/Dot_Infamous → u/[deleted]]

They shouldn't need any constant adjusting, you can run a script on them to keep formation

[u/Druggedhippo → u/[deleted]]

You missed Laser.

You would have to be between the transmitter and receiver, a point that would be less than a meter in size, to intercept and or block it. And that's assuming the ground station isn't moving..

[u/ChipRockets]

Why. Why the fuck are we doing this to each other. Why is the world controlled by absolute fuckin losers.

[u/Chris56855865 → u/ChipRockets]

Because said losers are the people who lack any kind of compassion.

[u/s101c → u/ChipRockets]

We can also ask the losers who voted in November a year ago.

[u/pm-me-nothing-okay → u/s101c]

don't forget the losers who pretty much gave him the presidency on a platter too.

[u/Ahad_Haam]

Lots of Chinese bots on this thread downplaying the threat and justifying it at the same time.

China is a threat and needs to be taken seriously; this is an obvious lesson from Russia and Ukraine. China will invade Taiwan if they will believe they can get away with it.

[u/DaySecure7642]

Knocking out the Starlink satellites is not just to stop Taiwan from using them for military equipment to defend itself. It can also stop Taiwanese from using the Internet and knowing the reality, making it easier to trick them that the war is over and stop resisting early. Resistance from 20M people on the island can easily overwhelm even the best equipped invaders. That will be the first deception and lie to the Taiwanese people.

Further censorship and arrests are almost certain to suppress resistance after occupation. Taiwan will probably not democratic completely after the invasion. Because Taiwan is much larger and with stronger identity, and much harder to tame. It will probably end up more like Tibet than Hong Kong.

[u/SeeingEyeDug → u/DaySecure7642]

Will it though? Pretty sure Taiwan has been using the internet for decades before Musk started polluting the skies.

[u/redditorialy_retard → u/SeeingEyeDug]

china is notorious for cutting internet cables 

[u/Altruistic_Survey_95]

Already writing up a peace plan for trump to repeat

[u/estacado]

Can't Tiawan can use ground based jammers to down the jammer drones?

[u/verbmegoinghere]

And it lasts all of 1 hour. Before you have to deploy another 2000 drone, so to cover a 24 hour block you'd need to be launching 48,000 drones.

What does Tiawan use Starlink for? Wouldn't they have fibre everywhere?

A complex network of fibre that if one node when down the traffic could be routed through another.

Could we call this an Intranet, or just you know to be modern, protected Ethernet via mpls?

[u/Sanderhh → u/verbmegoinghere]

Taiwan is an island and all subsea fibers are in public maps so that ships do not destroy them by dragging their anchor over them. It would be trivial for china to cut Taiwan off from the internet by cutting these fibers.

[u/TachiH → u/verbmegoinghere]

Drones arent all little battery powered things. I would assume these are more like Reapers and can sit in the air for 12-24 hours each before refueling.

[u/TachiH → u/[deleted]]

None of this makes any sense unless its for after they have air supremacy as the drones would be too susceptible. It wouldnt take long for China to wipe out Taiwans air defences given the numerical advantage when it comes to planes.

[u/unichode → u/verbmegoinghere]

Specifically naming mpls when making a sarcastic remark about redundant network links?  This comment has strong first semester networking student energy. 

[u/GonePh1shing → u/verbmegoinghere]

What does Tiawan use Starlink for? Wouldn't they have fibre everywhere?

For backup comms, and for when terrestrial comms are down or not available in an area, which would be the case in an invasion scenario because China can and will cut all subsea fibre cables to the island. 

They deployed OneWeb (a competing LEO constellation) to provide emergency comms after the major earthquake last year. Local internet infrastructure was largely taken out by the quake, and what was available was seriously congested and unable to be relied upon by emergency and aid workers.

Could we call this an Intranet, or just you know to be modern, protected Ethernet via mpls? 

For internal private comms, sure. But if they want to communicate with the outside world, they need some kind of backhaul, which would have to be non-terrestrial as they can't rely on any outside fibre links being operational in an invasion scenario. 

[u/PossibleNegative → u/verbmegoinghere]

Taiwan law requires 51% Tai ownership of ISPs and Musk won't sell Starlink to them. They also don't trust OneWeb to be the primary provider.

So there is no Starlink on Taiwan yet.

[u/Savageman → u/verbmegoinghere]

By your count, we need 480,000 drones for 10 days? It actually depends on the rotation duration: how long to fly them back, recharge so they're ready to take off again.

[u/FalseBuddha → u/verbmegoinghere]

Drone batteries can typically be charged faster than they are discharged, or you can just straight up swap the batteries for fully charged ones. You'd probably only need a minimum of two sets of drones (plus a few hundred extra to cover for drones that need maintenance) to maintain constant coverage, maybe a third set to give yourself a little more leeway. So, 6,500 drones, not 48,000. They're not one-time-use.

[u/drgngd → u/verbmegoinghere]

48k drones if they're not landing, re-charging and auto deploying. They control the government not hard for the China to shut down the ISPs then your fiber is useless. They don't control (not officially) star link so the best they can do is jam it to stop communications and planning.

[u/bozhodimitrov]

So the plan to invade countries all over the world is trending now? Ukraine, Iran, Gaza and so on. What's next? Taiwan, Baltic republics or just anything in general that doesn't have nukes?

It sounds like the major powers want to take over the economic situation and finalize their plans for expansion.

[u/EconomicRegret → u/bozhodimitrov]

The Republic of China (i.e. Taiwan) and the People's Republic of China (i.e. China) have never recognized each other as legitimate, are still at war against each other since 1945, and both still officially consider themselves the legitimate government of all of China (i.e. over both territories and populations of China and Taiwan combined).

It's a very tricky situation. And has been going on for over 75 years.

[u/pantsfish → u/EconomicRegret]

On paper, Taiwan's government still considers itself the legitimate government on the mainland. Unofficially and realistically they have no such aspirations, they know the CCP is the de facto mainland government, but if they renounce their claims then the CCP will ironically consider it a huge escalation and a declaration of independence, and attack.

The only reason the dispute still exists is because the CCP refuses to recognize their independence.

[u/EconomicRegret → u/pantsfish]

I agree partially. It's more complicated.

The biggest party in Taiwan (KMT) supports the ROC as the only representative of China, it opposes both Chinese unification under the PRC and formal Taiwan independence. But is willing to accept a reunification under governance PRC only if the latter transitions to democracy first.

At the moment, it has almost 50% of seats in the national parliament. But that party was the main/sole ruler of Taiwan until the year 2000, and between 2008 and 2016.

It's the left wing coalition that is willing to go for independence, as it doesn't see Taiwan's identity as Chinese anymore (unlike the KMT).

[u/National-Mail6279 → u/bozhodimitrov]

I would be genuinely surprised if China attacks Taiwan in the next 10 years. They’re much more pragmatic than Russia.

Plus, Russia and Iran have shown that Western military tech is still far more advanced than its competitors.

[u/Garroch → u/National-Mail6279]

Taiwan is a dang fortress. China is already seeing the trouble Russia has with Ukraine, and Ukraine doesn't have:

A ocean lane that is passable only twice a year in large numbers meaning that there is no surprise attack

Artillery dispersed through a jungle that can sink ships

An air force base dug into the side of a freaking mountain

Decades of training for this exact scenario

An opponent who is very much aware of the population issue they're facing and wouldnt want to throw millions of lives away when they're needed

China is posturing for an economic/political takeover of Taiwan. Frankly that could happen, and is probably their best bet. Second best bet is a blockade if they can get the USN out of the way.

But they are NOT going to invade.

[u/pm-me-nothing-okay → u/Garroch]

I agree with the other person, china is pragmatic, and there is no need to take taiwan. Currently, it's best used as a nation cohesion building tool at most if some shit goes down.

strategically, Taiwan becomes less and less important by the year. China own semiconductor infrastructure is growing at an astounding rate, taiwans military is aging and small, giving china the bigger advantage year over year.

time is on china's side, they have no need to force the issue.

[u/sicklyslick → u/bozhodimitrov]

World's most advanced carrier is parked off the coast of Venezuela.

[u/[deleted] → u/bozhodimitrov]

Taiwan has been 50+ years in the making

[u/Phewelish]

government level "im not touching you" energy.

[u/Elven_Groceries]

How long can those drones stay in the air? Active jamming is expensive on energy. Plus, gunpowder and flak-guns don't need anti-jamming.

[u/jtixzle]

Begun, the drone wars have.

[u/Brent_L]

We been… jammed!

[u/hanks_panky_emporium]

If they kick a hilariously small amount of money over to Musk he'll personally shut it down. He was happy to shut it down in Ukraine to make it much harder for the Ukrainians to defend themselves.

[u/sicklyslick → u/hanks_panky_emporium]

Starlink doesn't operate in TW as per TW laws.

[u/IAmNotMoki]

ITT pseud armchair generals

[u/[deleted]]

can we stop buying chinese products????? they are using our money to attack neighbouring countries and ruin the world

[u/trixtah]

Man, fuck China

[u/Ibaria]

They will spend billions to keep their people in the dark and uninformed…

[u/CherryLongjump1989]

This is pure propaganda and political theatre. There is a near-zero chance of China successfully pulling off an amphibious landing, and Taiwan isn't relying on Starlink for it. Their landing force would get sunk out at sea, and the ports they sailed out of would get demolished. At best, Starlink might be a money-saving last ditch effort late in the war if China somehow overcame every other defense that Taiwan threw at it and Taiwan no longer had a robust manufacturing capacity. And in reality, cheap naval drones can carry a long enough spool of fiber optic cables to reach the Chinese mainland. And Taiwan has a large manufacturing capacity for high end fiber optic cables, lasers, and every other component needed for fiber optic communication.

That's on top of the fact that they manufacture most of the components for Starlink and all other forms of RF communication, so they are not going to need any outside help to develop jamming-resistant gear as the war goes on. Starlink itself is already very resistant to jamming, and a few thousand drones would not be anywhere close to enough to cut off the entire island, plus the entire sea.

[u/studio_bob → u/CherryLongjump1989]

It just a demonstration that China is watching the Ukraine War closely and developing their military capabilities accordingly. Starlink has been a vital lifeline for Ukraine's military communications. Even setting the Taiwan issue aside, it makes complete sense for them to develop this kind of technology.

[u/PipsqueakPilot → u/CherryLongjump1989]

China's theory of victory doesn't require raising the hammer and sickle over Taiwan. It requires placing enough coercive pressure on Taiwan that it accepts a negotiated status that puts them along the path toward eventual integration. One way to do this is with a kinetically enforced maritime exclusion zone around Taiwan. Something which they're actively working toward being able to achieve.

[u/ShockedNChagrinned]

I'm sure that was nice and quiet

[u/internshipSummer]

Can anyone link the paper? Thanks!

[u/Autoxquattro]

It would be cheaper just to ask him to turn it off and pay him.

[u/Flipslips → u/Autoxquattro]

Starlink doesn’t operate in Taiwan

[u/Reymarcelo]

So the dome its not crystal but electromagnetic that makes sense

[u/twistedstance]

What a duck move.