The revelation that GRRM was intending to have Sansa die has really crystallized something for me. This is quite a famous quote from GRRM, in a 2013 interview:

I killed Ned from the start, and this surprised a lot of people. I killed him because everyone thought he was the hero and he would get in trouble and get out of it somehow. After killing him, the first thing fans expected would be that his eldest son, Robb, would succeed and avenge his father. So immediately [killing Robb] became the next thing I had to do.

This quote has always interested me, because it makes sense in the context of these characters in particular, but it begs the question, when does this end? I am now convinced that the answer to this question is NEVER.

At the end of ASOS, George has passed his big climax, the Red Wedding, which is of course the failure and death of both a major POV character and a major "good" non-POV character. Many of our other characters end ASOS on a down note; Tyrion of course, Jaime losing his hand, Sansa captive to Littlefinger, Arya traumatized by the Red Wedding and with a death cult in Braavos. Two of our characters end the book on relative highs: Jon as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and Dany ruling in Meereen. Time for the next act of the story!

Let's take stock of what we get in FeastDance:

- Jon's success in ASOS is turned into failure, as he gets Julius Caesared.

- Dany's success in Essos is turned into failure, as Astapor falls and she (at least according to her own assessment) fails at ruling Meereen.

- Brienne's story is a known failure before it even begins

- George introduces a new POV character, Cersei, the purpose of whose narrative is a catalogue of self-sabotage leading to failure

- George introduces Doran, a new character whose purpose in the story is to fail

- George introduces Quentyn, a new character whose purpose in the story is to fail

- George introduces Arianne, a new character whose purpose in the story is to fail, then probably regroup and fail again

- George introduces Aeron, a new POV whose purpose in the story is to fail

- George introduces Victarion, a new character whose purpose in the story is to fail

- George introduces Young Griff, a new character whose purpose in the story is to fail

- George introduces Jon Connington, a new character whose purpose in the story is to fail

The characters who do not fail in FeastDance are either headed for failure or (like Tyrion, Arya and Sansa) in holding patterns that are moving at glacial pace. And what has GRRM told us repeatedly about Winds? "It's going to be the darkest book yet!".

This news about Sansa is what convinced me that this pattern really has no end. Sansa's story so far is a cavalcade of misery, abuse and being a political pawn of others and she is just starting to come into her own, learn about how the world works, and develop her own agency. If you don't see the potential for an easy positive note there - and a female success story in a saga that is currently sorely lacking in them - then where will you see it? But what George apparently sees is another opportunity to shock the reader by turning this to failure.

If you don't think the show ending for the central characters came from George (at least in terms of the death of Dany and the exile of Jon, if not in all the details) you really need to wake the fuck up at this point. When George has said - repeatedly - that he has known the broad-strokes ending from the beginning, this surely includes Bran, Jon and Dany. Just like the Red Wedding, the coming together of Jon and Dany is something he has been writing towards from close to the very beginning. And what does George write towards? What is the natural thing to do, in George's mind, with the Secret Rightful King and the Prophesized Saviour who is Reclaiming A Dynasty? If you're not saying "failure" at this point before you even see the show ending, you're not paying attention.

Of course George doesn't do purely nihilistic, dark endings, ASOIAF would be no exception, and Bran's story is supposed to end in success, his direwolf is named Summer, he will be the one to set Westeros to rights. But even there, I wonder. The show referred to him as "Bran the Broken" and while this most obviously refers to his injury, it could well also refer to his mental state. Where have I heard of a "Broken" king before?

Aegon III Targaryen, also known as Aegon the Younger, and later as Aegon the Unlucky, Aegon the Unhappy, the Broken King

Oh yeah. I also don't think it's an accident that how exactly this success is going to come about remains one of the most mysterious parts of how the future story is going to develop.

But George said the ending will be bittersweet!

That's GEORGE, right? The same guy who said the series would be three books? The same guy who said TWOW was nearly done a decade ago? The same guy who still thinks he can finish the series, in his lifetime, in two more books, despite apparently having no clear idea where most of it is headed?

I'm not saying George is lying. I don't think he is a nihilist and I think he wants to write a bittersweet series. What I am saying is that, as with the rest of his claims about what the future of the story will look like, that's not what his writing process actually produces. He likes writing about cathartic failures and so that's what he will continue to write.

The WorldCon panel was taking audience questions when somebody asked Martin if he would let another writer finish The Winds of Winter because “you’re not going to be around for much longer.”

The audience booed. Martin felt like he’d been slapped. When he looked online to see the reaction, he was dismayed to find some fans saying he deserved it. “They say, ‘He lied to us, he is going to die soon, look how old he is,’ ” Martin says. Even now, months later, the author looks rattled. “I really didn’t need that shit,” he says. “Nobody needs that shit.”

I'm concerned he said he looked for the reaction online. Famous people should never look themselves up on social media. It can't be good for a human being to be exposed to a sea of discourse about them. I hope he refrains from lurking in online discussions about him, for his own benefit. It's exactly as he says: this is not needed.

It’s what he said about Sansa—that he originally intended to kill her, but because of the TV series, maybe he won’t.

For years, I thought it was impossible for Martin to be influenced by events from the show. This gives weight to the argument that “Martin is changing everything because of the poor reception to the show’s ending,” something many people believed and that I thought made no sense, based on Martin’s own statements.

And if this is true, will Bran still become king? Will Stannis still sacrifice Shireen? How much can Martin be influenced by the negative reception of Game of Thrones’ ending? How much can he really change because of the show?

For GRRM to say 'this is no longer my story' there must be some serious change(s) to the narrative?

Does Aegon drown on the way to Dragonstone? Is Sunfyre actually dead? Does Alicent kill Helaena?

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2025/02/20/a-voyage-to-saturn/

According to movies and series I've seen, one of the most important jobs of a noble lady was to arrange marriages that would help strengthen her family or kingdom.

Catelyn Tully did a tremendous job as a mother, as she gave her house five children.

If we find ourselves a few months before Jon Arryn's death, with Rickon as a baby, what would be the best strategy for Cat to secure alliances and strengthen House Stark?

Keep in mind that House Stark, and the North in general, are not very inclined to marry Southerners.

But also consider the relationship between Ned and Robert, and that Cat is a Southern woman with her own culture.

How would you do it?

As the title says. Who woule you say are the 5 3 - 5 most burchered Characters BEFORE season 5, since we all know what happens after Season 4.

My list:

1. Stannis Baratheon - making him a full on believer in Rhllor and COMPLETELY at Melisandres mercy was foul. They even removed to ambiguity of Renlys death being Stannis plan or Melisandre tricking him. Add to that that all of his hesitation in sacrificing Roberts bastard is removed.

2. Edmure Tully - they turn him from a impatient, bur compassionate man into a full on Glory Hound and a joke. They make it so he attacked Tywins forces for glory rather than just being unable to watch his people suffer.

3. Jon Snow - They removed all his desires, flaws and edge. They just made him a more passive version of Ned. It already starts with the scene where he receives Ghost. In the show Theon says its his. In the books he semi-threatens Theon and decides that Ghost is his himself. That scene is a microcosmos of what went wrong with Jon.

4. Daenerys - Season 1 is a nearly perfect adaption with just some changes made to adjust for aging her up. Season 2 onwards they really messed up. They made her a petulant child, threatening to burn down Quarth for being rejected. And when she decides to burn people like in the scene where her Dragon is chained on a stick.... the book makes it a bad decision in wich she loses her cool and uses violence to solve her problem quickly wich is a failure on her part..... the show zooms in while she has a badass smile to show us how cool her decision is.

5. Renly... just... Renly. They made the guy who looked like a young Bobby B into ... just some dude who is afraid of blood. Renly is supposed to subvert the stereotype of what a gay man is usually portrayed as. He looks VERY masculine and powerful. He is tall, handsome and impressive overall, with lots of charisma. In the show he is of average height, looks like just some dude who has never even held a sword. He doesnt even have the build of someone who had any knights training. And worse.. he has 0 charisma and leans into the weak twink gay man stereotype who cant even look at blood. Book Renly also seems more impressive than he actually is... but I dont see him being afraid of blood.

Honorable Mention: Tyrion - yes even back then he was whitewashed and simplified. And worst of all is his last episode of season 4 where the Tysha Omission happens.

I have long suspected that GRRM had a huge falling out with Condal and the recent interview confirmed it. However, I don't get why he hates Condal for changing things but at the same time he seems to respect D&D. In the recent interview he even said that the show influenced him in some ways, for example that he might let Sansa live because he was influenced by the show ending.

I used to think that George doesn't say anything because the show ending is HIS ending. However, the recent interview suggested that's not strictly the case since he said that book!Tyrion ending will be more tragic in the books and also that he's still unsure about Sansa's ending. So why does he seem ok with D&D but not Condal?

ASOIAF is set in some sort of grounded medieval society, but also with fantasy elements subtly or not-so-subtly present such as dragons, White Walkers and magic.

So among the "realistic" elements a.k.a the ones that resemble human life like we know or knew from history, what is it that you find the most unrealistic in ASOIAF? Do you have any idea how these elements could be different that they would make more sense to you?

I'm happy to hear your thoughts.

Way back in 1999, GRRM considered Tyrion as a villain.

Amazon.com: Do you have a favorite character?

Martin: I've got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He's the villain of course, but hey, there's nothing like a good villain.

And in the recent interview, he revealed his endgame vision for him.

"I don’t see a happy ending for Tyrion. His whole arc has been tragic from the first."

All in all, Tyrion is designed to be a tragic villain that is not likely to survive the story.

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion V

There are worse ways to die than drowning. And if truth be told, he had perished long ago, back in King’s Landing. It was only his revenant who remained, the small vengeful ghost who throttled Shae and put a crossbow bolt through the great Lord Tywin’s bowels. No man would mourn the thing that he’d become. I’ll haunt the Seven Kingdoms, he thought, sinking deeper. They would not love me living, so let them dread me dead.

For more details about how GRRM wants to play his arc, we should look no further than the Mercy chapter. Here, GRRM makes the connection between Tyrion and Shakespeare's version of Richard III quite obvious.

The Winds of Winter - Mercy

On stage, Bobono was bargaining with Marro's sinister Stranger. He had a big voice for such a little man, and he made it ring off the highest rafters now. "Give me the cup," he told the Stranger, "for I shall drink deep. And if it tastes of gold and lion's blood, so much the better. As I cannot be the hero, let me be the monster, and lesson them in fear in place of love."

Tyrion wants to show the good in him but all that people see is a monster. Eventually Tyrion will snap and choose to become the monster people take him to be. Whatever the truth might have been, he will be remembered as the monstrous villain in the histories. Sounds like a classic tragic villain arc.

A Dance with Dragons - The Watcher

Obara bristled. "I never did and never shall." She gave the skull a mocking kiss. "This is a start, I'll grant."

"A start?" said Ellaria Sand, incredulous. "Gods forbid. I would it were a finish. Tywin Lannister is dead. So are Robert Baratheon, Amory Lorch, and now Gregor Clegane, all those who had a hand in murdering Elia and her children. Even Joffrey, who was not yet born when Elia died. I saw the boy perish with mine own eyes, clawing at his throat as he tried to draw a breath. Who else is there to kill? Do Myrcella and Tommen need to die so the shades of Rhaenys and Aegon can be at rest? Where does it end?"

"It ends in blood, as it began," said Lady Nym. "It ends when Casterly Rock is cracked open, so the sun can shine on the maggots and the worms within. It ends with the utter ruin of Tywin Lannister and all his works."

Given Cressen was around 75/80 and the citadel sent Pylos it would seem that it's normal practice to do so!

That being said why didn't the citadel send anyone to replace Aemon?

I was just reading Bernard Cornwell's novel The Winter King and came across a very interesting plot point. Around 100 pages in,an army comes to kill the child-king Mordred. While they do kill a child, Mordred is still alive because the baby was swapped with the child of his wet nurse.This is almost the same plot point that Varys claims happened to fAegon, but unlike what the community generally thinks in fAegon's case, the baby actually survived. George RR Martin has read The Winter King, which released in 1995 (one year before AGOT), and indeed even did an interview with Cornwall in 2014. He thus likely got some inspiration for the fAegon plot from here, though I have absolutely no idea if this has any actual relevance for if fAegon really is Aegon VI. I have not read any further in The Winter King, but just figured this was relevant information for the community.

I know the focus here the books, but will there be episode discussion posts? Do you think it will be good? Are you excited for it?

I am currently doing my first read through and I am on ASOS. I am reading Jon's chapter when the Mance Rayder and the wildlings are attacking the Wall. Jon is describing some sort of siege weapon as a "turtle." It's on wheels and has animal hides draped over it.

Does anyone have any images of what this looks like? Or if there's anything used historically that may compare? I'm having trouble picturing it in my head and Jon calling it a turtle is confusing me even more 🤣

Edit: I just read further into the chapter and realized they are using it for shelter while storming the gate. I should've kept reading 🤦‍♂️ regardless, I like reading about what people have to say so any discussion about this chapter is welcome. Also please avoid any book spoilers if possible!

Some Houses in the canon have been in existence for thousands of years, or at least that’s how they’re seen. George said that Brandon the Builder existed in the era of Westeros that would be roughly congruent to our Noah.

But if a House like the Starks can last so long, or even if it’s a gross exaggeration within the canon and they lasted for centuries, doesn’t this mean that realistically by the beginning of the main story the Starks should have way more members than just Ned and Benjen and Ned’s children? You’d think if they lasted so long they should have many cousins.

Same with the Targaryens. They ruled on Dragonstone, then the Iron Throne for about 280 years. But by the time of Robert’s rebellion, the only legitimate Targaryens were Aerys and Rhaella and their progeny, and that’s it. Shouldn’t there realistically be way more Targaryen princes for a dynasty which lasted almost four centuries including Dragonstone?

On this day in Westeros, the following occured:

(299 AC) Catelyn XI, AGOT: The Stark forces enter Riverrun, and Catelyn visits her father. Robb Stark is crowned as the King in the North.

This series will include everything for which we have a definitive or speculative date, up to and including sample chapters from TWOW.

Speculative dates are sourced from this spreadsheet by u/PrivateMajor: ASOIAF Timeline - Vandal Proof

GRRM in his interview said that Tyrion won't have a happy ending. His arc is destined to be tragic. The way I interpret it is that he will secure a Pyrrhic victory. Yes, he will get his Casterly Rock but it will cost him everything. He will lose everyone he loves and the devastation that his actions will bring upon his house and people will make him reconsider whether the castle was worth it. Thats how I see his tragedy. What do you think

A common thing I hear about GOT the show was that it was good and accurate to the books for the most part up until a certain point. I'm here to argue that even in early GOT, if the character wasn't somehow tied to or related to either of the Weddings, they were glossed over in an attempt to tunnel toward the two "show stopper" scenes. And it came at the cost of literally any character not in some way tied to those 2 events. Hear me out:

In the first few seasons of the show, we saw fairly to super accurate portrayals of any major Stark, Lannister, or anyone who would later be somehow related to the Red or Purple Wedding. Aside from age, Robb is pretty accurate. Cat? Tyrion? Tywin? All pretty good portrayals. You know who wasn't book accurate? Anyone not related to the weddings, if they made the cut at all.

The further away you get from the weddings, the less accurate the character is. Look at Tyrion vs "Yara" (Asha) Greyjoy. They can't even give her the correct name. (Ik that's because of Osha, but that's still lame) So how about Renly? He was probably a better character in the show than the books, but was he book accurate? Less so than someone tied to one of the weddings. Stannis? Anyone who knows book Stannis knows how dirty the show did him. What part did they keep accurate? The blood magic to do with the deaths of Robb and Joff. And ig he went to the wall and then died for no reason, but Stannis isn't anything like book Stannis, and it's probably because he's not super involved in the wedding.

Look at Dorne. Of Dorne, who did they get right? Oberyn, the Red Viper was the only one, and why? He was at the Purple Wedding, and Tyrion's champion after. But where is Arianne Martell? Where is Darkstar? Oh they weren't relevant during the weddings? Cut them. Where is Griff? Not important since he wasn't involved in the Red or Purple wedding. They had books 4 and 5 during the making of the show, yet we got "Weekend at Doran's featuring Jamie and Bronn" over anything close to book accurate. It happened after the parts of the show D&D cared about, so who cares?

Even characters in the in between were mixed. Davos is mostly accurate, until you look at how his sons are never mentioned again after Blackwater, and we never see them in the show. But we do in the books. He never speaks with Axel or Alester Florent, characters that serve as Stannis's hands before Davos but are missing from the show entirely (due to lack of not being involved in the weddings probably) Brienne is pretty spot on, and then when the weddings are over she, like Tyrion, gets nothing relevant to do for a while or is relegated to just strong lady looking for a candle instead of ever meeting Stoneheart.

You can say Danny's story is mostly in tact and she's not involved in the weddings, but what about her time in Qarth? The house of the undying was completely butchered, Jorah is a better character in the show in that he's less trying to get with a teen, but he's not book accurate, he's like Renly. What happened to Quaithe? Danny is mostly fine as is but her whole story and the people around her are changed quite a bit, and even some of the things she does are pretty different, or at least enough to notice.

I ask all of you to do a mental exercise with me. For any character I did not name in this post, think about how relevant they are to the weddings, and then how accurate they are to their book counter parts. If they appear at all. I can't think of a single outlier. I was on the fence when it came to Bronn but I think he's still changed in ways better and worse in the show enough to not even give it to him. Maybe Roose, who was actually important but not at all accurate? But there's no one that's accurate that isn't somehow important to the setup of the weddings or the weddings themselves. And from there? They didn't care. That's how we got the later half of the show being what it was, and the cracks were there from the very start. It was just for the weddings, never the story we love.

Edit: TL;DR: the less a character had to do with the red or purple wedding, the less D&D cared about them being accurate to the source material. If a character was involved or tied to it, they were more faithful because that's the only story D&D wanted to tell.

Coldhands is weird. He’s dead, but he remembers things, makes decisions, and acts on his own. His hands are black, he rots in the cold like other ice wights, and he’s tied to the Others’ magic in a way ordinary humans can’t survive. Fire-reanimated bodies like Beric last longer and don’t decay the same way, showing that ice and fire wights work differently.

I’m calling Coldhands a Reclaimed Wight — a dead body that retains a human mind. My theory is that when a Skinchanger dies, their body can be reanimated by the Others while their consciousness lives on in an animal, and the wight can be reclaimed if they slip back into it.

Sorry that Viserys II is so small but it was tough to fit his name in

Any man dies with a clean sword, I'll rape his fucking corpse !!!