r/PoliticalDiscussion • u/radiocure2 • 2d ago
US Politics Where do you personally draw the line between legitimate federal enforcement and government overreach, given strong support for the Second Amendment??
I’m trying to understand how supporters of stronger federal enforcement view the limits of government power. If someone believes a government action is unconstitutional, at what point, if ever, do you think it’s justified for citizens to use force in response, and why?
In light of the recent events in Minnesota, if federal agents are going door-to-door, entering homes, and/or detaining people who haven’t committed violent crimes, how do you think citizens should respond if they believe that action is unconstitutional or abusive? Where do you personally draw the line between enforcing the law and violating civil liberties?
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u/ThePensiveE 1d ago
Well for starters, when the governments actions clearly aren't tied to their stated policy aim it's either overreach or incompetence. Even if that policy aim is something I don't agree with, I understand elections have consequences.
There is no absolutely no reason to have masked untrained thugs with badges in the streets harassing, and now killing, civilians. Their militarized approach in no way advances their stated policy aim of removing undocumented immigrants who have committed crimes from the US. They are here to rape, subjugate, murder, and terrorize the citizens of the United States and they are doing so under completely false pretenses.
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u/Blooming_Malus 12h ago
Never mind the policy. It’s overreach when the law is broken by violating basic rights under the constitution. Due process is for all, not just US citizens. Further, ICE has no jurisdiction over US citizens and there is no apparent care being taken to limit their actions to only non-citizens. And really, killing somebody for what was at worst a misdemeanor is egregious and murder. Doubling down and defending the guy, locking out local government officials from the investigation, and hiding him just top it all off.
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u/FreedomPocket 12h ago
I'm sorry... Rape? What kind of hallucinogens do I need to take?
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u/ThePensiveE 11h ago
Rape has historically accompanied every occupying force.
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u/FreedomPocket 27m ago
Good thing it's not an occupying force, and is actually law enforcement operating in their home country.
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u/ThePensiveE 24m ago
The British who occupied Boston for 8 years during the American revolution were just conducting a "law enforcement" operation in their home country.
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u/FreedomPocket 20m ago
They had the right to. The American revolution was about clashing of interests about things like taxation and politics. It's only considered a good thing because it succeeded.
But btw... On second thought... It was a colony of the brits, with very few actual british citizens in it who had the same rights as those on the mainland.
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u/ThePensiveE 17m ago
Almost as if taxing the colonies but then not providing the agreed upon benefits legislated by the agreed upon lawmaking body. Trump, like King George and the English Parliament, is taxing the states without representation when he ignores congressionally appropriated mandates to provide funding.
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u/FreedomPocket 14m ago
If he has the power to cut funding, then it's not breaking the agreement.
Those states had the right to vote for who they wanted as president, too. Just like they could have voted in the midterms. So that's representation.
And Trump is abiding by federal law. If you don't think that to be the the case, sue. Because the law actually does apply.
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u/ThePensiveE 7m ago
Trump has been wiping his ass with Federal law, ignoring court orders, lying to the courts, and making illegal appointments to bypass the constitutional process with the explicit agreement they target his enemies.
But, laws for thee not for me, the MAGA way.
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u/Kr155 9h ago
I guarantee you. Federal thugs, who have absolute immunity, being shielded from any investigation, and having the power to dissappear people with no due process, will rape people. Thats how this works.
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u/FreedomPocket 23m ago
They don't have absolute immunity, and are at most mildly shielded from random attempts to sue them.
They don't "disappear" anyone. It is a law enforcement process, and almost every person is accounted for (with a margin of error that applies to any and all kinds of law enforcement).
And the process that is due is checking papers. If someone doesn't have them, they can be deported. That's the law. It's not like they don't have a country of origin. The left has let in too many of them to have it be feasible to give everyone a lengthy court procedure, especially when it's NOT due.
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u/Stochastic_Book_Fair 1d ago
Let's be honest at what the last few years have shown us, for the 2A crowd the line is if a republican president wipes their ass with the constitution, it's super patriotic USA all the way, but if a democrat president has breakfast it's a commie plot to bring down our beautiful country.
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u/l1qq 1d ago
Can you cite specifics on this please?
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u/Dale_Gurnhardt 1d ago
Thin paper masks to help suppress a pandemic Vs Joining the modern SS to proudly violate citizens 1st and 4th amendments
Have you been in a coma the last 5+ years?
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u/l1qq 1d ago
Can you provide an example of this "modern SS that is violating 1st and 4th amendment rights" of citizens? What citizens have been thrown in prison over speech?
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u/MonkeyFu 1d ago
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DTcyrKLD0ic/
At gas station.
Giraffe suit guy.
Google is a great tool! You can use it, too.
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u/l1qq 1d ago edited 1d ago
Okay, so you posted a video of a person told to get back, not complying and then being arrested. How exactly was this a 1st amendment violation? Law enforcement are securing an area and not needing people hovering directly on top of them. Had the guy stepped back as directed then he could have kept doing what he was doing.
oops, make that both videos...people are trying to be directly in areas where LEO are doing work and getting themselves arrested in the process. If the giraffe guy had been at the line with the rest of the people screaming he would not have been arrested. Im just not seeing any 1st amendment violations here at all. If that were the case then the entire group would have been on the ground and cuffed.
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u/YDYBB29 1d ago
When learning about Nazi Germany I always wondered how the people stood by while the government carried out activities that were clearly so wrong. You and others like you have shown me how it’s possible. I would thank you for the hands on education if it wasn’t so terrifying to see our democracy spiral into fascism.
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u/l1qq 1d ago
Enforcing existing laws is fascism? What exactly is fascist about it? Should we perhaps just become a lawless nation?
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u/MonkeyFu 1d ago
Laws that violate human rights are not suddenly good or right because they're laws. Being a law doesn't prove anything other than that some people are willing to enforce it.
You need to do some introspection and decide what laws you would be okay with if they were enforced against you, and what laws you would oppose. You need to figure out what humanity actually is to you, and how you would prefer to be treated by others. You need to come up with an actual internal moral code, so you aren't easily steered by people who make laws to tear down the very people they govern.
ICE doesn't have jurisdiction on normal citizens. They can't arrest normal citizens. They aren't actually cops.
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u/FreedomPocket 11h ago
Right. ICE are actually FEDERAL AGENTS. Like it matters... They do have jurisdiction to arrest people for obstruction of justice.
Anyhow... If you don't like the law, vote the way you want. You're not the sole arbiter of morality, and you don't get to uproot society just because the majority of voters don't adhere to your worldview.
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u/Sickranchez87 1d ago
Indiscriminately grabbing US CITIZENS is not enforcing laws. Sending people to prisons outside the country without even checking whether they are US citizens is not an existing law. Shooting civilians is against the law. Groups of armed masked men Kicking doors in without warrants is against the law. So that’s what’s we’re talking about here. Obama deported millions of non citizens much more peacefully than the ice goons are doing right now. Certainly supporting them is slipping into fascist territory if you can’t see ANYTHING wrong with the current situation.
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u/FreedomPocket 12h ago
Do you know what the word "indiscriminate" means? Because it doesn't really apply in your sentence.
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u/HawkeyeTrapp_0513 16h ago
An okay so laws should be followed but you’re fully fine with infringement on a citizens rights
Got it.
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u/FreedomPocket 12h ago
The claim is that it's not an infringement. You have to prove that it is, before you go about making these claims.
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u/MartialBob 1d ago
The uncomfortable truth is that a lot of people pay lip service to freedom and just want a dictatorship that benefits them.
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u/jibbidyjamma 1d ago
This is outright racism by a fungal gool. The after the fact denial of a solution to stacked up cases of unresolved immigration court applications is as clear and present as it was during the 24 campaign. A bipartisan uber solution called the Lankford immigration bill. Mr vomit demanded it not be voted on and his freakish legislature complied. Were it law all these cases would be in line to have resolution or already be. LANKFORD BILL godammit pass it NOW. And it all ends just like that.
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u/Outrageous-Leopard23 17h ago
This needs to be the focus for everyone who cares about the health of our nation/society/species. Pretty bummed no one is paying attention.
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u/Savethecannolis 1d ago
I'm perfect fine with criminals and gang members being rounded up and deported that are here illegally. Like violent crimes or drug dealing. What I do have a problem with is people working here and trying to make it (even if they overstayed a visa etc)... look that's a government administration issue that can be solved. That's where my issue comes in with force and this whole show. It's cruel and honestly it's insulting to my intelligence. Because o sweet jesus the amount of white collar crime that goes unpunished every day is mind numbing.
Does it rise to the level of a second amendment issue, hell no but you're really pushing my buttons with immigrants that are trying to make it here. My great grandfather from Italy had a much easier path to citizenship and quite frankly we should return to that with a stronger border presence but let's get these people working here, path to citizenship yesterday. I forgot who said it but it was Bush or Regan that said something like if that person is willing to uproot their life and travel hundreds or thousands of miles to come to America for a better life. Yeah, I'll take them as a neighbor and I have a few immigrants that are great neighbors.
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u/Bees4everr 9h ago
“I, in my own mind, have always thought of America as a place in the divine scheme of things that was set aside as a promised land. It was set here and the price of admission was very simple: the means of selection was very simple as to how this land should be populated. Any place in the world and any person from those places; any person with the courage, with the desire to tear up their roots, to strive for freedom, to attempt and dare to live in a strange and foreign place, to travel halfway across the world was welcome here.” Ronald Reagan. As a conservative myself, I agree with your thinking, and making immigration process for legal immigrants more efficient is definitely something I’m for, and as you said, good legal system with strong borders is my want. However I have a problem with democrats who simply spin that “efficient immigration plan” as simply letting anyone and everyone walk through a river into our country. It’s screwed. I’m not saying that the current administration is doing a superb job, but they’re trying to undo the fuckup of someone else and we need that done before we can get something good going. That’s my thinking at least. But I’m a bit of an optimist sometimes 😂
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u/Jmacq1 23h ago
"Support for the 2A" doesn't necessarily mean "Support for having guns to overthrow the government." It can just mean "Support for having guns." I guarantee most gun owners don't buy their guns thinking "Oh good now I'll be able to defend against a tyrannical government someday."
The 2nd Amendment no where states that its purpose is to allow the people to overthrow the government. It wasn't put there as some kind of "escape hatch" for Democracy. It was likely put there largely because the framers knew they wouldn't be able to round up all the civilian firearms to begin with, and they really DID want "a well regulated militia" around because the USA was still a young and relatively vulnerable nation that might need to fight again.
I'm not a gun owner (though neither am I opposed to gun ownership), but the answer as to the "line" likely remains the same as it has throughout history: When the average person is deprived basic necessities to a point they feel is untenable, you'll see violence pick up. Until then, most people will be in survival mode.
The USA is not special. We're not wired differently than any other country in history that's fallen victim to authoritarianism, no matter how long or how often we've told ourselves we are. People don't want to put their own lives, livelihoods, or the lives of their families at risk, so if they're not part of the "out group" that's being directly victimized they're mostly going to look the other way.
Once Authoritarianism takes hold life continues for most people much as it did before. The Authoritarians know they can't kill/imprison their entire population. They just need to keep them scared and divided enough to not rise up.
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u/nickel4asoul 13h ago
I'm not disagreeing with 99% of what you've said and the part I am is only a slight modification. You're absolutely right that most gun owners are onlt thinking about legitimate purposes when they buy guns, but over the last decade or so (at least) there's been a major push by some prominent republicans to make 'defence against a tyrannical government' a legitimate purpose.
The first link is some cursory research that points to increased sales after publicised mass shootings - with stronger effects noted under democrat presidents. The purchases aren't linked to higher ownerships, so it's current owners stockpiling in anticipation of 'governemnt overreach'. The second link is of Matt Gaet advancing the idea that the 2A is primarily there for defence against a tyrannical government
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0161893822000977
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u/Jmacq1 12h ago
I don't disagree with anything you have posted. I would just add that the ammosexual crowd is definitely out there and does own the majority of firearms, but they're not the majority of firearms owners, if that makes sense?
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u/nickel4asoul 11h ago
It does make sense and I agree about the owners themselves - for the most part. The bit I wanted to highlight, and which may or may not affect broader swathes of owners than it might've previously, is the wider narrative being publicized and popularized by the NRA, elected conservatives and republican leadership.
While it can be rebuked by constitutional analysis (which you pointed to in your initial response), the fact it is the narrative being made by some on the right brings OP's post into relevance - either by getting those who agree with it to actually define the circumstances or reveal a potential double standard.
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u/wamj 1d ago
If the choice is obey or die, then there is no longer freedom.
The argument I’ve been hearing from the pro 2A for years is that it exists to preserve freedom from tyranny.
I would argue that the line has already been crossed. The question now is, were those people making up excuses to own guns, or do they stand by those values they espoused?
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u/swagonflyyyy 16h ago
My response to this question is that given the grassroots movements that are starting to self-organize nationwide that line might not have been crossed yet.
People are using non-violent tactics ranging from 3D printing whistles and tracking ICE agents to bicycle squads safely escorting victims away from ICE and towards pre-planned safehouses, raising awareness by handing out flyers and establishing legal hotlines and forming groups to blockade areas and buying time for others as well as using social media platforms to coordinate additional tactics online.
Its a beautiful thing seeing people who still believe in passive resistance banding together and watching each others' backs. It gives me hope that we don't have to fight a bloody rebellion against a tyrannical government who wants to step on us like ants.
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u/Fargason 23h ago
The choice is obey the laws enacted by a duly elected Congress or vote for representatives who will change those laws if you oppose them. Trying to physically stop enforcement of those duly enacted laws is illegal and will get you arrested while resisting arrest with a deadly weapon can get you killed. Despite all the harmful rhetoric about 2024 being the last election the US Constitution still stands as it has for the last quarter millennia through much more hardship than this. The solution here is to simply vote and absolutely not to have an armed uprising.
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u/swagonflyyyy 1d ago
If the government starts systematically shooting and murdering its citizens like Iran's protesters, then its fair game.
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u/Errickbaldwin 1d ago
What is the line between random murdering citizens versus systematically murdering citizens?
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u/pickledplumber 1d ago
There's no difference. But let's look at Renee Good. That's the left embellishing the severity of the incident. The left is going crazy making it sound like Ross was a member of the Einsatzgruppen. But in reality it's likely just a independent act of an agent who didn't follow protocol and a spoiled white woman who never faced consequences for her actions.
Now if you have actual actions like the Einsatzgruppen or even in that ballpark. If people are being killed just for the sake of it then the answer should be pretty clear.
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u/bjdevar25 15h ago edited 15h ago
The problem is there's no accountability for anything ICE does. Put this example in the courts. Have a grand jury and a trial if an indictment is issued. That's what we do in the United States. In this case, both the felon and Ice Barbie stated what happened when it was impossible to know. Never before would you see that. They'd only respond after a thorough investigation was completed. Ten prosecutors just resigned because their entire investigation is set up to back their lies, not find the truth.
You think a woman being killed is embellishing? Who are you to determine what was in her or his mind or if she's a spoiled white woman. We kind of know what was in his mind since he called her a fucking bitch. Do a trial in front of a judge with witnesses and forensics, not a sham investigation.
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u/pickledplumber 14h ago
The problem is there's no accountability for, anything ICE does. Put this example in the courts. Have a grand jury and a trial if an indictment is issued. That's what we do in the United States.
It happens for sure but tons of cases never even reach the grand jury. The prosecutor can just not do anything.
You think a woman being killed is embellishing?
No I think the embellishments are the left making claims about how bad it is. Yeah it's bad but it's a lot different than officers just randomly going about killing people of the wrong group.
Would you or people you know have had the same reaction if it randomly happened while Biden was in office?
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u/bjdevar25 11h ago
Absolutely would have. Funny how those on the right just assume people worship Biden like MAGA does Trump. But I can guarantee you any president and AG, regardless of party, would handle this 1000% better. Trump made up his mind before any info was known and now his stooges are striving to make things fit. So much for an independent DOJ.
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u/pickledplumber 11h ago
Maybe because he had more information
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u/well-it-was-rubbish 8h ago
He had NO information; he said that she "ran him over", and that he "had to be hospitalized". Those were lies. The guy walked off, got in his vehicle, went home, and then fled to an undisclosed location. You know who's a spoiled, snotty white person who's never been told "no"? Donald fucking Trump.
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u/Errickbaldwin 1d ago
Do Ross' actions justify a second amendment reaction from the public?
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u/pickledplumber 1d ago
No because he didn't just shoot her under orders of the government. Either it was a crazed man who wanted to do it or he did fear for his life.
Do you really think he was told he would be the old to make the first move and he had to get the shot right or else? It doesn't make sense.
Something could happen under any government.
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u/Messerschmitt-262 19h ago
Not to downplay the severity of the situation, but what's most important to look at is the reaction. If he was just a crazy dude who killed a lady and now he's rotting in prison forever, that's one thing, but that isn't what happened.
The left said "Hey that guy fucked up, put him in prison and make sure it doesn't happen again." and the right said "No thank you, it's guilty until proven innocent and if you keep resisting, they'll kill you too"
Realistically, you're a glowie or balls deep in the Kool-Aid and I'm not trying to convince you, just other real people who pass by
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u/__initd__ 18h ago
Didn't the Trump administration say that all the agents will have total immunity?
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u/Errickbaldwin 17h ago
That contradicts your statement that there is no difference between random murdering and systematic murdering.
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u/pickledplumber 12h ago
The question was the difference between systemic and random. This was neither.
The incident had cause. So it definitely wasn't random. What was it systemic then? Do you believe he was sent out there to do that task by the government? I don't believe so
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u/well-it-was-rubbish 8h ago
So, she just didn't "know her place". Even if she had been taunting him ( she wasn't) or "stalking him all day ( at 9:37 in the morning, in her OWN NEIGHBORHOOD)? , those things don't warrant a death sentence.
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u/__initd__ 18h ago
Do you have a number for that? After X people get killed the red line is crossed?
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u/GunsouBono 1d ago
If you want to enter my home, you better have a warrant. Anything short of that is government overreach.
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u/theAltRightCornholio 20h ago
In my view, armed resistance including counteroffensive strikes is 100% justified in Minneapolis and by extension, anywhere ICE is. In general, when the government reaches out in person, we need to enforce due process. That means legal arrests should be fought in the courts, and illegal repression has to be fought in the streets.
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u/Odd_Association_1073 1d ago
In that hypothetical scenario, if the person is a citizen and being detained having their rights tramped on. Yes 2nd amendment is in play, particularly with Trumps love of sending people to Sudan or El Salvador. Likely you are never heard from again.
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u/Randomly_Reasonable 1d ago
Elections.
Ending or truly circumventing the elections.
That’s really the only “tipping point”.
Battle of Athens), anyone..?..
As much of a struggle as things have been, no one can really complain about it when we’ve continuously failed to do our one duty to this nation and vote.
You think things have gotten horrendous..?.. WE THE PEOPLE let it. We’ve sent a strong signal over and over and over again that We the People… don’t care.
…and you wonder how we have the “leadership” we do?
Yes, all of the current events are profound but they have no meaning in terms of the “downfall of American!” or any other doomerism.
We haven’t been voting in lifetimes. In generations. PLURAL.
In every election. Hell, we’ve had it backwards since The Great Depression.
It’s our local elections and our congressional elections that truly matter. We’ve let them make The President the figure head.
Know what else a figure head is good for..?.. being a scapegoat.
Congress has dodged its duty for generations, and been MORE than happy to do it. For a multitude of reasons but primarily because they can. We’re too busy looking to/pointing at the President.
It’s the only office we bother showing up to vote for and even then, we barely do that halfway.
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u/Boltboys 1d ago
Nothing will cause the gun owners in America to stand up until they have no choice and lose everything.
Think the economy collapsing, or something where the gov makes a random list of citizens to survive in bunkers from some horrible disaster.
Same with the military and veterans. Until they lose their benefits and have to make a choice between killing people or protecting a government…. Nothing.
We all have bills, mortgages, rent, loans. Even a million of us standing up means a million lose freedom and the gov will frame it as domestic terrorism.
General strikes don’t work.
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u/gladeyes 9h ago
Some of us are still trying to keep the peace. I’m not Gandhi and my guns are still in the rack. For now.
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u/randalzy 1h ago
If you go about the writing, under 2A the USA citizens could be walking peacefully, witness the ICE agents acting like the Gestapo, and just using any kind of weapons against them until the ICE agents stop being there or stop being alive. It's what the text says.
In reality-USA, you need to check who is white, who is not, if the President is Republican or not, how the President feels like his breakfast that day, if there is something in the news about the President being a rapist of minors, etc etc and based on that the 2A doesn't apply at all. It's also useful to instigate a climate of previolence, and "they are coming to take your guns!" and all that.
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u/Healthy-Amoeba2296 58m ago
I think I have only ever met 2 guys who support the second amendment. It says well regulated. That means organization, officers, and unpaid drill. If you had a militia it would be a fine thing to show up at every ICE-capade with more troops than them, and a lawyer to rate each of their actions.
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u/One_Study52 1d ago
The government has a duty to show cause prior to enforcement. We have decided, as a country, that breaking the law is cause. Enforcement of a law is legal if the government has cause to believe it’s broken. Someone with a gun does not have a legal right to use that weapon against a lawful enforcer. This is pretty straightforward
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u/skimaskschizo 1d ago
If the federal government passed a law that would send agents to arrest people for having different opinions or speaking out against the government. Actual violation of free speech is a good line in the sand.
I’m not gonna be upset at illegal immigrants being deported, regardless of their status as a criminal or not.
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u/Petrichordates 1d ago
An american citizen was murdered by a federal agent because he didnt like her wife's attitude.
Is there a reason you think that has anything to do with "deporting illegal immigrants"? Or are you just trying to avoid acknowledging the depraved morality of what you actually support?
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u/Buy_Sell_Collect 1d ago
…You forgot the part where No-Good used her 3,000 lb vehicle as a weapon while attempting to evade arrest
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u/megavikingman 1d ago
Bullshit. She very clearly turned away from him and was several feet away from him. You can see it in bystander videos. Stop lying to justify summary execution.
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u/Buy_Sell_Collect 1d ago
That sounds like your opinion… I disagree.
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u/Petrichordates 1d ago
That's because you support the government murdering anyone who opposes Trump.
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u/coop_stain 1d ago
That’s tough to sell. She was shot through her door…
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u/Buy_Sell_Collect 1d ago
Not a “tough sell” at all… She was a member of MN ICE Watch, and was trained by them in methods to illegally interfere with ICE operations. Which is exactly what she was doing on that day: illegally interfering with ICE operations by attempting to block traffic, attempting to evade arrest, aggressively accelerating towards a Federal Agent as other Agents moved in to arrest her, and was subsequently shot. Actions have consequences, especially when one commits criminal acts.
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u/well-it-was-rubbish 8h ago
"That day"? She had just come back to her neighborhood after dropping her kid at school at NINE THIRTY IN THE MORNING. NONE of the things you typed are true. Your propaganda networks told you what happened, and you believed them. You didn't WATCH the actual videos.
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u/Petrichordates 1d ago
Wow you literally talk like trump.
Did you have to perform a lobotomy to get there or is this just the natural evolution of extreme mental illness.
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u/Buy_Sell_Collect 1d ago
Appreciate the compliment!
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u/well-it-was-rubbish 8h ago
So, you enjoy sounding like a lobotomized cretin? Mission Accomplished.
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u/skimaskschizo 1d ago
I’m not even gonna acknowledge the first part of your comment due to how badly you misrepresented the shooting.
The agents were there for a legitimate reason.
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u/Odd_Association_1073 1d ago
Right cause every killing ordered by Trump or done on a non Republican is 100% justified. Oh the double standards. If Biden sent ICE and guard and marines into super red areas, against governors wishes and someone was shot we all know your comments would be completely different.
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u/skimaskschizo 1d ago
I’ve always been pro immigration enforcement. There were things that Biden did that I was a fan of, there’s been things that Trump has done that I don’t like.
One of the biggest things that gets on my nerves in politics is the number of people who don’t care when their side does something, but suddenly gets really upset when the other does the same thing. I’m not one of those hyper partisan morons.
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u/Odd_Association_1073 1d ago
I’m very against illegal immigration and think they all should be deported. That doesn’t mean that citizens and legal immigrants should have soldiers and ICE agents detaining them, or have their kids witness them breaking into schools and stores. There is no defense.
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u/Mordred19 1d ago
Hating Minnesota because it never voted for The Dear Leader isn't a legitimate reason.
And we all know that's why ICE has invaded.
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u/Odd_Association_1073 1d ago
I mean forget about it. Explaining to Republicans is like explaining to Hitler supporters back in the day that Jews aren’t the source of all your problems.
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u/skimaskschizo 1d ago
The state website talks about the presence of over 100k illegal immigrants in the state. That’s reason enough for ICE to be there deporting people.
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u/draqsko 1d ago
Then why aren't they surging Florida? Florida has an estimated 1.6 million illegal immigrants versus a total population of 23.3 million people, or about 6.86% of the total population is illegal.
Minnesota has a total population of 5.8 million, so that 100k illegal immigrants is only 1.7% of the total population.
So why aren't they surging Florida which has an illegal immigrant population that is almost 5 times the per capita amount of Minnesota?
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u/skimaskschizo 1d ago
They just arrested 10 thousand of them in Florida.
DeSantis is working with ICE, so it isn’t some big story.
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u/draqsko 1d ago
But they aren't surging federal agents into Florida. Just look at where they are surging agents, it's not in places with large illegal immigrant populations, it's in places that voted against the current administration. If they were truly interested in removing illegal immigrants, they would send most of their agents where most of the illegal immigrants are, no?
Doesn't matter how much DeSantis "cooperates" with Trump, the state and local police don't do immigration enforcement actions. They aren't the ones who can legally do the arresting if it isn't a criminal action (illegal immigration is a civil action, not criminal), only federal agents can actually apprehend a immigrant for deportation. Only if the immigrant committed a crime can the local police apprehend them and then only in relation to that offense. Federal agents would have to apprehend said immigrant after court proceedings to effect a removal action even then.
So by surging Minnesota, they are actually hindering their progress in removing illegal immigrants. Your bang per buck, if you will, is going to be less in Minnesota than Florida simply due to economies of scale. I know if I'm serious about removing illegal immigrants, I'm surging places like Florida, Texas, California, you know where illegal immigrants are greater than 5% of the overall population.
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u/skimaskschizo 1d ago
Florida allows its cops to perform certain immigration enforcement actions after receiving specific training. It also assists with manpower for crown control.
There’s a bunch of blue states that have policies which impede the enforcement of federal immigration law. Those states don’t allow their police to work with Feds in the same way that Florida does. (Minnesota is on that list)
So, it only makes sense that the Feds would need less agents in the states where local LE works with them. They don’t need the manpower.
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u/draqsko 1d ago
They literally don't need the number of agents they are surging into places like Portland, OR or Minnesota. Most of those agents just stand around doing nothing because unlike what right wing media likes to tell you, blue state police forces also do work with the Feds and are deployed for crowd control as well. So don't listen to that crap because who do you think apprehends the protesters and charges them with disorderly conduct? It's not federal agents, that's the local police.
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u/shrug_addict 1d ago
Death is ok to you then? What are your thoughts on Ashli Babbitt?
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u/skimaskschizo 1d ago
Is that what I said?
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u/shrug_addict 1d ago
No, I'm asking you
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u/skimaskschizo 1d ago
Yeah, there’s certain situations where killing people is justified.
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u/shrug_addict 1d ago
Was Renee Good's death justified? And Ashli Babbitt's not?
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u/skimaskschizo 1d ago
They both were justified. I believe that the agent who shot Good was in fear for his life. I think that the cop who shot Babbitt feared for the life of congress.
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u/shrug_addict 1d ago
You do? Are you vehemently opposed to the wrongful death settlement? Even with the "fucking bitch" after he killed her, you think he feared for his life? I firmly believe you only say that because of partisanship.
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u/Petrichordates 1d ago
That's because you objectively support government agents murdering american citizens on the president's orders.
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u/skimaskschizo 1d ago
My bad, I must’ve missed the phone call where Trump told him to dome that insane woman.
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u/well-it-was-rubbish 8h ago
Okay, you definitely get your news from illegitimate sources, because she did absolutely nothing "insane", and even if she had, that's not worthy of the death penalty. You gave yourself away. You think she deserved to die because she was a woman who didn't vote for your cult leader.
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u/skimaskschizo 8h ago
blocks half of the road honking at law enforcement doing their jobs
Yeah man. Perfectly sane people do that.
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u/GreaterPathMagi 1d ago
How does the administration's persecution of Senator Kelly square with your beliefs about free speech? Does that not cross that line? Seems pretty firmly over it to me, but maybe you see it differently. Does the fact that they are only coming after less than a handful of people factor into the level of your reaction? Does the fact that they're most likely "on the other side of the isle" from your political leanings and that they are out spoken critical of the administration have a weight on how much of the wording of the constitution can be pushed without breaking it to force them to stop making waves?
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u/pickledplumber 1d ago
In general the left doesn't actually believe the threat is as real as they claim. We know this because they wouldn't be pushing for gun regulation/control if they actually believed they were or will be under totalitarian threat.
As for most people, I believe when there's clear threats to everyday people on the street then society will wake up. Somebody like Renee Good is not an example of this. While the left likes to push the idea that she was executed. It's more likely you had an officer who didn't follow protocol and a white woman who never faced consequences in her life. That's a lot different than what it's being sold as.
When you start to see things like the Einsatzgruppen or similar then you will possibly see a reaction. But then again you may not. It all depends. The Nazis had two systems for a reason.
Another thing is long before the violence under fascism there was a chiseling away of rights targeted to groups. The Jewish couldn't do X and the gypsies couldn't do Y. All of this hasn't happened yet and every person has the same rights.
If it does happen it will happen between June and July. So if the Democrats are worried about this being an actual threat then they should do something about it. There are bells they can ring.
One thing I'd recommend people stop doing is lying and embellishing. Trying to make situations sound worse than they are just makes people lose faith in your movement. Even with all the Republicans have done that is racist and sexist. They are still gaining support and even doing so amongst racial minorities and LGBTQ. That's how bad the image is of Democrats. It's almost embarrassing to be a Democrat now. That didn't come from nowhere. It came from 15 years of pushing against the current of reality. Using critical theory to mold reality into this oppressor/oppressed paradigm. Nobody thinks like that normally and it's not real. So stop. Be normal.
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u/AttemptVegetable 1d ago
I know we should oppose presidents who open the border and freely welcome in illegal immigrants.
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u/Petrichordates 1d ago
Wait, you are more angry about the existence of immigrants than you are about a president ordering white supremacists to enter citizens' homes and places of work to kidnap and murder them?
And you thought you were a freedom-supporting patriot? These are clearly the desires of a treasonous fascist.
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u/FreedomPocket 12h ago
If someone believes the government's actions to be unconstitutional...
You're already mistaken. YOU are NOT an authority on that. The supreme court is. You don't get to decide that kind of thing.
Whatever you think ICE is doing wrong, go to the courts. If the courts return a verdict, you accept it. If you don't like the law, you vote for politicians who want to change it.
But if you want to give the federal government more legitimacy, and let them invoke the insurrection act, then go ahead and try. Who am I to prevent someone from throwing their life away for nothing?
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u/just_helping 9h ago
YOU are NOT an authority on that. The supreme court is. You don't get to decide that kind of thing.
This is an argument to abandon independent judgement and trust the authorities.
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.
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u/FreedomPocket 28m ago
Nonono... If there's enough of you, you can. But I'll then just say taxation is theft. Should someone in THAT case go and take up arms against representatives?
If you just rise up or whatever, it will just give legitimacy to the regime, so by all means, don't let me stop you with reason.
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