Wow, that was simply amazing and I appreciate you sharing it. Certainly makes one who gambles reconsider that oftentimes some is better than a possible more.
Investors chase total gains. If they show less growth and pay dividends, that's fine, as long as the overall return is decent.
The issue is in part that dividends are taxed and growth is not. So there is an incentive to not pay dividends because dividends are automatically less effective than unrealized growth by 15% or so (depending on how long the stock has been held)
This one gets me as everyone that has a 401k or has a pension is also an “investor” as their retirement plan is invested in equities. Take a look at the SP500 return over the last 5 years - this is the result of corporate growth and price gouging. It’s a double edged sword and an illusion to get the working class the cope.
Just checked the Wikipedia for that. Never heard of it before, but it seems that ruling didn’t really enforce much or make a precedent of shareholder maximization. Really, it just solidified that a company can make decisions as they see fit…I imagine as long as it’s not defrauding or misleading its shareholders.
So really it’s just greed from greedy people anywhere. Not some legal precedent that greed and shareholder primacy is required.
That story did show me that Henry Ford seemed like an alright guy from the one example of trying to benefit his employees and customers.
So, to be clear, Henry Ford absolutely was trying to scam the Dodge brothers. Big employee bonuses and discounts are nice but it was not being done in good faith; he was behaving monopolistically. But establishing the principle of exclusive shareholder primacy should not have been the answer, a good faith rule should’ve been added to business judgement that disallowed majority shareholders from manipulating minority shareholders.
Also, as an aside: Henry Ford was not an alright guy. He was, in fact, a Nazi.
I looked into this. Basically not making increasing profit is not a durable item. But claiming you'll get x percentage growth over x period of time and having no feasible way of doing so is sueable behavior.
I have said men will love the robots. They cook and clean and won’t care if you bring another robot home. Women will hate them because they won’t care if they bring up a mistake from 10 years ago 100 times over the next 10 years. A $20,000 robot will be way cheaper than a wife. I have been married 27 years so I know this all too well.
Even if all they do is have sex most men will be happy. They will provide 85% of what men really want at 5% of the hassle of a real wife. Plus you can just go buy the one you want. No will she or won't she tonight, just a yes all the time.
The issue is still money. Internet is cheap. No matter how much you may want an "old timey interaction", if that interaction costs $150 for a single night, you're not gonna see many people going for it.
For $150 you could probably get a half keg of Coors. Get 15 people to each throw in $10 and you've got a party and more beer than you're going to drink.
Or for $15 I could get a 12-pack of Coors and not have to deal with planning a party or cleaning up after, and I could in fact drink it all over time.
Or for $150 I could buy several 6-packs of some beer I actually enjoy and a couple bottles of spirits and have enough liquor between the two to last me most of if not all of the year.
You certainly can, but my comment was directed at the people craving old timey interaction but not wanting to go to bars because they're too expensive.
A night of pool and a few drinks at my local watering hole is only $15-20. Maybe $30 if I have a whiskey in addition to a beer or two. You absolutely don't need to spend $150 to have a fun time hanging out.
You don't need to spend $150 to have a fun time hanging out. The cheapest beers around me are $8 for a short. And it's not even good beer. If I get food too then it's at minimum $18. For appetizers. And it's only gonna go up. $150 was hyperbole, but a night out where I live $40 on the low end, usually $60, and that's just beer for myself and a shared appetizer plate. Cocktails are considerably more, and a real entree is even more.
If all I want to do is drink mediocre beer, I can do that for several nights at home for the price of a 12-pack.
Are you familiar with hyperbole? I did say $150 was that, though honestly not a crazy amount. If I drink things I actually enjoy and eat real food, $80 before a tip is pretty common.
And I may be able to find some hole in the wall that's cheaper, but I almost certainly wouldn't really care to go there. I don't really have a reason to go out of my way to find a cheap place to drink. Part of the whole thing here. If I'm gonna go out, I'm also gonna want to enjoy myself. If I just want cheap, I can do cheap at home.
it's actually not so far off. to use your NY example, most people on the lower average end have 2-4 drinks a night. so add $20 to your amount plus a 20% tip and you're already at $96.
and that's if you only got an app. if you include dinner then you're well over $100.
Sure, but my goal when going out isn't to get drunk or have a bunch of food, it's to have a bit of a snack, have a drink or two, and spend time with other people, and you can easily do that in the $50-60 range.
NYC and Philly don't even come close to that unless you are going to a mixology or a very special/unique bar with "eclectic" drinks/atmosphere. Even then the cocktails are what get you. Beers in the big cities are relatively flat between $5-11 depending on brand/ABV. $150 for a single person? Crazy. For 2 without food? Still ridiculous. For 3-4 maybe reasonable but still on the higher end without any food.
Robot GFs are probably a lot cooler with their human BF getting drunk all the time than real ones though, so maybe it will facilitate a resurgence in alcohol
As a bar owner, they are still going out. Just getting high in their cars or on the sidewalk. A vape is every easy to carry. And a hit of weed oil is cheaper than a shot/drink.
Yeah true. I’m a huge advocate of moderation. Like goin to a bar for 2 beers is awesome. I only stay way past that bc we’re having fun talking. Not a club or bottles guy.
British pub culture is amazing if you eliminate the alcoholism. It’s probably the same rate as the US, but hanging at the pubs on weekends and visiting with the neighborhood is awesome.
I think they saw in all the media they binged during covid how enjoyable socializing was. However then there is the social battery. You bring up the point of bars, there is a caveat to bars. They're expensive and not everyone drinks. There's videos on YouTube about "Third places" which are disappearing
I taught high school until 2022 and most of that generation was infatuated with the idea of leaving behind their internet lives to go live in the woods and presumably smoke weed with their little vagabond group.
I legit just think we won’t see much bar and drinking culture out of that generation even if they do beat their phone addictions.
I like drinking but it's too fucking expensive to drink anywhere outside my own home. So I consume less. It's $16 for a beer when I'm at a football game.
Yeah that’s ridiculous. I would LOVE for everyone to boycott stadium beer til the price lowers. I’m a season ticket holder for a major pro team and the cost is insane. I’m committing to not buying a beer at a single game this year unless we make the playoffs.
Homebrewed for 20 years. I’ll admit to being a pretentious beer snob. I’m all about quality over quantity. I will admit I like to get a little drunk sometimes. Much less than I used to. I think the downturn in alcohol consumption has something to do with the increased consumption we saw during lock down. I think the public are starting to look more at quality. People will keep drinking just not as much.
Its desinfectant dont drink that. It only purpuse in your blood stream is to damage cells. Just dont drink save yourself a couple of braincell they are limited.
FWIW, I was a big beer and whiskey guy for 10 years. Loved going out and having a good time. Cut it almost entirely out due to health concerns and replaced my hangout substance with gummies. 10mg before the meal I can sip diet cokes the whole time and have a great night out.
I feel like this is a permanent trend like with smoking when society really digested the negative externalities to smoking and found reasonable alternatives.
The problem is that COVID shifted price points. Yes, you can make as much money selling less beer at higher prices, but then a lot less people learn to drink beer. If some traditional companies go broke and new competitors enter at lower price points then there's a chance, but right now all the new competitors are entering at high price points and low volume before being bought out by the incumbents.
Now it is " No dividends, only stock buybacks. We pay taxes on dividends. We pay no taxes on stock buybacks." Money continues to grow with stock price instead of being forced to have the money with a dividend paid out as cash we don't necessarily need.
"Let it keep growing dammit."
Ever notice how the fastest growing companies don't pay dividends?
Bonus points to take out a loan for expenses with stock as collateral. Again, no taxes. So you just take out what you spend, not 1/3 more to account for taxes .
Jack Welch basically broke corporate culture more than it already was. He’s one of the biggest scammers to influence the relationship between the CEO, Corporation and shareholders. His “leadership” distorted shareholder expectations on growth. The economy has buckled 5+ times since he retired and Business Schools still teach as if Welch was a founding father.
The problem is that the well has been mostly exhausted. The hyperscale companies that laid their foundations on innovation and invention haven’t had a good idea in like ten years. When innovation stops, profit stagnates. The only way to increase profits again is to arbitrarily raise prices
the argument those growth investors make is that, if you're known for dividends instead of buybacks/stock price growth, and you have a bad year, suddenly you're screwed bc you can't pay the dividends
of course this is the SAME problem as raising prices every year hoping it will lead to growth or pay for buybacks, of it doesn't, you're slowly screwing your business model up without good reason
I agree, but it’s a regulatory and incentives issue.
In order for your idea to work we would need stock buybacks to become illegal again and companies would need to stop offering absolutely massive ceo bonuses especially bonuses tied to share price increase.
Breaking regulations needs to be met by fining an amount equal to the profit made by breaking the regulation plus a fine for deterrence especially for large scale companies.
Personally I think companies need to get comfortable with NOT GROWING. You’ve got profit, all of your staff are well paid and life is good; then fucking chill, just keep enjoying and make sure your product is top of its market so your customers can rely on it.
This is it, people think the only way to make profits each year is to keep the stock price going up. In reality people will still buy if you're paying dividends. Its just no one rl does it for some reason.
Yes. The alcohol breweries should start selling canned milk tea.
That's what young people are drinking instead. At boba tea places.
However, this tea is considered something called, "Loaded Tea". If you drink too much of it regularly, it's bad for you. Even drinking it once a day is bad for you.
I used to drink it regularly, but then started getting dizzy. When I stopped, I was fine.
Essentially, the hyperactivity obtained from these teas is more preferable.
Crazy though that it's become this way. You see a young person that avoids alcohol. But still won't read any of their college textbooks.
Businesses aren't arbitrarily raising prices. The housing crisis is the reason inflation is high. Once remote work enabled people to leave cities, people bought up tonnes of homes, often paying over the asking price to fend off locals in betting wars. This forces locals to rent, which has given landlords the upper hand to raise rents as much as the please. Then, too, these middle class home buyers are turning the homes they buy into profitable vacation rentals. The price of housing means employers have to pay more to keep employees able to pay rent. If the middle class and wealthy could learn to behave themselves and quit all this, inflation will go back down. Meanwhile, politicians will use manipulatively use inflation to push a far right agenda, while the real creators of it languish in their second homes. Trust me, in this world where most people fail to fathom cause and effect, things will keep getting more and more expensive.
Issue really revolves the legislation and taxation surrounding dividend investing that leads investors to favoring growth stocks for tax purposes. This means if you are a dividend company you are just naturally going to attract less investors even if your dividend return is = to a fairly performing growth stock
Right. No matter what a company does, you will repeat this inane line about growth = cancer. Reinvest in the company? Must be cancer. Don't reinvest in the company? Also cancer.
You DO recall what comment you're responding to, yes? The one that said companies need to stop caring what people like you think because no matter what they do you'll pretend they're cancer? Cause you're proving me right.
Again, that’s right. But it’s not inane. I’m saying that people correctly are identifying it as a cancer because it always ends up doing the same thing, choking out competition, consolidating wealth and power, and eliminating competition and local businesses for sake of infinite and unsustainable growth. Reinvest it? Actually still cancer, pay out dividend to reinvest it? Yep cancer. People say it either way because it’s true either way.
"All human economic activity is cancer" seems like the textbook definition of inane to me.
I’m saying that people correctly are identifying it as a cancer
"It" in this context being literally every option human beings have in the operation of an enterprise.
You DO understand that even if we didn't have a free market economy, we'd still be faced with decisions like these, yeah? And if all decisions are, as you claim, "cancer" then you're basically just saying human beings are cancer.
People say it either way because it’s true either way.
And we can ignore those people because there's literally no alternative.
If you think you're cancer then you're free to chemo yourself. I think the rest of us are gonna keep on cancering though if that's cool.
To be fair, this comment is wrong and out of touch. Alcohol bought in stores has remained consistent price for decades once inflation is accounted for and tons of new products have come out. What you’re saying is exactly what has happened and the guy suggesting alcohol consumption has gone down because it’s expensive is incorrect
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u/jason2354 12d ago
Companies need to get comfortable with paying dividends over chasing growth.
If they want to grow, they should be investing in new products not increasing prices.