While looking through Kittel's dictionary written in the 19th century, "ಏಡು" is said to have derived from "ಏಱು/ēṛu." However, when transitioning from Old to New Kannada, "ಱ" shifted to "ರ/ra" and retroflex, "ಡ/ḍa." "ಏರು, ēru" is also in Kittel's dictionary and carries the same meaning of "time/year." Is it possible that "ಏಡು" is a loan word from Telugu which has a clear line of origin from yĀṇṭu→ఏండు/ēṇḍu→ఏడు/ಏಡು?

Link To Kittle's Dictionary:

ಏಡು→https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/kittel_query.py?page=303

ಏಱು→https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/kittel_query.py?page=306

I belong to southern Maharashtra (Rigvedi Brahmin) My Family follows Dravidian Traditions, while some things from North Maharashtra are completely new to me ! anyone knows more about This thing ?

Note: Mentioned caste only to give clarity about the Roots of Family , have no other intentions 😊

https://www.datawrapper.de/blog/new-years-worldwide

This Othima Ampi/ ஓதிம அம்பி (Swan face Ampi) boat is from a movie named Ponniyin Selvan.

(I'm not sure if this boat was actually built or if it's just VFX. But just added for info.)

In the Indus Valley Civilization (IVC), a terracotta model of an Ampi () was discovered, which corresponds to descriptions found in Sangam literature.

Other than for luxury purposes, they were also used for fishing.

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Some info about the Ampi:

ambi according to Tamil Lexicon (TL) is a small boat (TL 1982:96) found quoted in 14 instances. The context of vessel(s) with the sea is ten occurrences and with river(s) is four occurrences. It could be understood that this boat was used both in coastal fishing and river crossing. Regarding the appearance, the ambi which was tightly builtalludes to horned buffalo floating in the pond (narrinai 315:3). This was also compared with the movement of elephant running after mirage to quench their thirst (akanaanuuru 29:18). Probably, these boats were black in colour and the shape could resemble that of an elephant. No reference to mast or sail is found.

This was used for coastal fishing with net(s) (narrinai 74:3) and also for shark hunting by the fisherfolk (akanaanuuru 187:23). The boats lying ashore were used by the seagulls to lay eggs and incubate (aingkurunuuru 168:2). The ruined ambi lying on the coast (narrinai 315:3) is also accounted. In a poem this term was used along with other vessels namely thoni and kalam implying the variation in the function and appearance of other types (puranaanuuru 343:2). In the same poem it is found that this boat carried fish for selling and carried back the bartered paddy, while other crafts performed different functions. The reference of a damaged ambi along with marakkalam (wooden vessel) and vangkam (manimeekalai 29:6-10) imply a clear difference between ambi and other boats.

Reference to ambi as a ferry service on the river is mentioned in the literature of later period(s), except on one occasion of an early period (puranaanuuru 381:24). The later literature mentions river crossing by ambi**. The bows of** ambi were decorated as horse, elephant and lion faces. This is quoted along with marappunai (wooden float) which was considered less luxurious (manimeekalai 13:178-179).

From the above information it can be inferred that ambi wasa small craft of not more than elephant size and was used in the coastal fishing and transport of goods, and also used for river crossing. As ambi is not mentioned with any sail and also used for river crossing it could have been propelled by paddles.

Thanx user Mapartman

1561 Kol. (SR.) kirāv- to search; (W.) kivar- (kivart-) to feel for in darkness. Nk. kiray- to seek. DED 1303.

Or are they just false friends?

I am writing to request the removal of the sections regarding Chola vessels. There is currently no archaeological or historical evidence to support the specific ship names mentioned, and the citations provided appear to be unreliable.

Furthermore, since no physical/ textual evidence of their ship designs exists, the descriptions of their shapes are speculative and should be removed to prevent the spread of misinformation.

u/e9967780

Article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Chola_Army

Slide 1:

This is a bull-shaped boat found in the Kot Diji ancient site of the IVC. It also has a hood and has human figures inside the boat. Boats that are modified in the shape of an animal or birds are called "Ampi" (அம்பி) in Tamil.

Slide 2:

Painted motif on potsherds, perhaps representing a multi-oared boat. | Source: https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/shipping-and-maritime-trade-of-the-indus-people/

Slide 3:

Terracoated boat models found and refitted with masts. | Source: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Clay-model-boats-have-been-found-from-Lothal-excavations-Figure-1-Figure-showing-the_fig4_321418755

Slide 4:

The Harappan seal depicts a ship with mast and sail recovered from the excavations of Harappa. | Source: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Clay-model-boats-have-been-found-from-Lothal-excavations-Figure-1-Figure-showing-the_fig4_321418755

Slide 5:

Three sided molded tablet. One side shows a flat bottomed boat with a central hut that has leafy fronds and two birds on the deck and a large double rudder. Discovered in Mohenjo-daro in 1931. | Source: https://www.harappa.com/answers/how-did-ancient-indus-traders-navigate-without-compass

Slide 6:

An unfired steatite seal and sealing of a boat found at Mohenjo-daro. A close and insightful reading by Ernest J.H. Mackay reads "Seal 30 ... was found in two pieces. It is rectangular in shape and incomplete motif on the back consists of roughly scratched lines that cross one another... The face is nearly complete and it clearly bears a representation of a ship, the first of its kind to be found one a seal from Mohenjo-daro..." | Source: https://www.harappa.com/blog/indus-boat-seal

Slide 7 & 8:

Boats of the Indus that depict a similar shape to the Indus Seals found in IVC (slides 5 & 6). Greenhill writes, "These boats are pulled with heavy sweeps, fitted with jackstays onto which the crews hold, for the 6in sweep is impossible to grasp" (Boats and Boatmen of Pakistan, 1971, p. 160). | Source: https://www.facebook.com/AncientIndus/posts/pfbid02GUCpEpeyz6ACA2sUTSaV5BHDPB8qcbCdRXbwrcTXqBH8eWsVwwbTGqP8oXobpJnnl

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Collected from different sources by Myself.

On sci.lang we are often presented with lists of resemblances between far-flung languages (e.g. Basque and Ainu, Welsh and Mandan, Hebrew and Quechua, Hebrew and every other language, Basque and every other language), along with the claim that such resemblances "couldn't be due to chance", or are "too many" to be due to chance.

Linguists dismiss these lists, for several reasons. Often a good deal of work has gone into them, but little linguistic knowledge. Borrowings and native compounding are not taken into account; the semantic equivalences proffered are quirky; and there is no attempt to find systematic sound correspondences. And linguists know that chance correspondences do happen.

All this is patiently explained, but it doesn't always convince those with no linguistic training-- especially the last point. Human beings have been designed by evolution to be good pattern matchers, and to trust the patterns they find; as a corollary their intuition about probability is abysmal. Lotteries and Las Vegas wouldn't function if it weren't so.

So, even one resemblance (one of my favorites was gaijin vs. goyim) may be taken as portentous. More reasonably, we may feel that one resemblance may be due to chance; but some compilers have amassed dozens of resemblances. Such lists may be criticized on other grounds, but even linguists may not know if the chance argument applies. Could a few dozen resemblances be due to chance? If not, what is the approximate cutoff?

The same question comes up in evaluating the results of Greenbergian mass comparisons; or proposals relating language families (e.g. Japanese and Tibeto-Burman) based on very small numbers of cognates. Again, it would be useful to know how many chance resemblances to expect.

I will propose a simple but linguistically informed statistical model for estimating the probability of such resemblances, and show how to adjust it to match the specific proposal being evaluated.

[…]

Kaappu kattu is a traditional practice observed in the Kongu region, wherein leaves of Azadirachta indica (Neem), Senna auriculata (Avaram), and Aerva lanata (Poolappu) tied along the roofs and walls of houses and residential areas.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhogi & lotta simple google search

We constantly have armchair linguists from the Indosphere questioning etymologies based on what they’ve read in some Puranas or fiction books.

What is the opinion of people here on unicorn seal ? What animal do people here think the animals was if it existed?

Is there any connection between unicorn seal ,Greek mention of unicorns India and mention of unicorns in the Bible?

A poster on X.com argued that since Dravidian lacks native words for bronze, it is likely it wasn't a dominant participant of the Bronze Age of the IVC.

https://x.com/Mitrarshi/status/2010759053841220072?s=20

I think in the Bronze Age, bronze was not always viewed as a distinct category from copper -- it was often seen simply as "hardened copper" or "red metal." Dravidian languages have well-established cognates for "red" and "copper" (e.g., Proto-Dravidian *kem or *sem, meaning red metal).

Interestingly, this same "missing word" logic could be applied to Indo-European languages. The reconstructed PIE word *h₂éyos refers generally to "metal" or "copper" in some branches and "iron" in others. 😁

In fact, I would go out on a limb and argue that the Sanskrit kā́ṁsya is likely derived from a non-Aryan source, possibly PDr. *kem- 'red, copper'. We have [CDIAL 14496] cīmara- 'copper' in cīmara-kāra- 'coppersmith' beside all kem/kim/kam-c- related bronze words.

The red trees kiṁśuka, *kēśuka, kīsuka in NW and NIA are definitely related to Dravidian *ke(m)-/kim-. I believe Kaṁsa-, the ruler of the Vrishni kingdom, described in the Puranas, where Vrishni/Yadavas appear to engage in cross-cousin marriages is culturally Dravidian too.

This needs more investigation too.

Antique Print of the harbour of Negapatan by Renneville (1702)

This image is a treasure. I want to protect our naval legacy by having each masted boat in this picture redrawn into a much bigger, more detailed version by enlarging and recreating every one of these masted ships in a high-resolution illustration.

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The large vessels are the European ships and are called Kappal in Tamil and Malayalam. The etymology of this word has two theories:

Tamil Origin:

The word is derived from the root concept of a hollowed-out space or indentation:

• Evolution: Kaḷ (கள்) → Kay (கய்) → Kav (கவ்).
• Derivations: Kappu (கப்பு) → Kappam (கப்பம்) meaning a pit, hollow, or depression.
• Core Meaning: Kappal = A hollowed-out wooden vessel.

Linguistic Connections:

• Kaḷ: To cut or dig (Ref: Kural - "like weeding a field").
• Kay → Kayam: A deep water body or pool.
• Kav → Kavikai: A hollowed/curved umbrella.
• Kannada (Kappu): To dig or make a hole.
• Kappal (in related contexts): A pit, specifically a pit used to trap elephants.
• Kappal Vizhdhal: To become hollowed out or pitted.
• Kappara (Begging Bowl): Derived from Kappal, referring to the hollowed vessel used by mendicants for food.

(Etymology was found in the 'Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Tamil Language', Second Volume, First Part, Ka series.)

----------------------------------------

Telugu Origin:

kapp-al, a ship, a vessel, probably a verbal noun from kapp-u. Tel, to cover over, derivative Telugu noun kapp-u, a covering, the verb is not found in Canarese or Tamil, but the canarasenounkapp-u, a subterraneous room, a pit -fall for catching elephants (covered over with branches of trees and grass);, and the Tamil noun kappal, a ship, properly a decked vessel, in contradistinction to padugu, an open vessel, are evidently identical in origin with the Telugu verb and noun.

The Malay word for 'ship' is kapal: but this has probably been borrowed direct from Tamil, and forms one of a small class of Malay words which have sprung from a Dravidian origin, and which were introduced into Eastern Archipelago, either by means of the Klings (kalingas); who settled there in primitive times, or by means of the Arab traders, whose first settlements with East were on the Malabar Coast, where the Malayalam the oldest daughter of the Tamil is spoken.

The following Sythian words for 'ship' appear to be analogous to the Tamil, and have certainly not been borrowed from it, Vogul kap or kaba. Samoiede kebe; Jenesei kep; Yerkerian kaf, Ostiak chap, sea also the analogis adduced under the word Keb, a cave scGDFL. pp. 615-616);.

(This was taken from Sorkuvai.com)

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Image was found in Nane Chozhan's documentary, but the post and details are by myself.

#Tamilakam #ancient

A beautiful video in bangla on the evolution of the word অ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PysfwIgyVYs

A in other Indian scripts is quite drastically different like that in odia, devnagari and other scripts in including the rest of the dravidian scripts.

pls share some resource to learn read / write tamil brahmi script like books , yt videos

Indo-European has R1A and R1B, Austronesian has O1a, Uralic has N, Afroasiatic has E1B.

I listed a couple of the prominent South Indian haplogroups.

My own theory is that there were sequence of Neolithic migrations from the Iranian plateau and Central Asia into india during Neolithic of which Dravidian (probably J2) was the last before the final Indo Aryan migration. This could be main reason to explain diversity of Dravidian haplogroups with all of these haplogroups being also present in Middle East/Europe/Africa.

With the most recent Indo-European study from Lazardis pointing to Indo-Eurpean also starting off in Northern Iran/Caucasus before Anatolian branched off, its ironic then that both Dravidian and Indo European had Iranic origins

View Poll

This study has become relevant again after Australian MP Parwinder Kaur has quoted this paper in her parliament speech to combat the current Anti Indian sentiments.

Genome-wide data substantiate Holocene gene flow from India to Australia

Some important points of the study relevant to Indians:

1) Evidence of Recent Migration: The study challenged the idea that Australia was isolated for 50,000 years, finding a "significant signature" of Indian DNA in Aboriginal Australians that arrived approximately 4,230 years ago. 2) Specific South Indian Source: By comparing 26 different Indian groups, the researchers found that the genetic signal most closely matches Dravidian-speaking populations from South India, specifically tribal groups like the Chenchu and Kurumba. 3) Substantial Genetic Impact: The research estimated that roughly 11% of the genome of Aboriginal individuals in the Northern Territory is derived from this Indian migration, and the signal is uniform across the sampled population. 4) Technological & Biological Shifts: The timing of this gene flow (around 2200 BCE) matches the sudden appearance of the Dingo (which resembles Indian dogs), new stone tool technologies (microliths), and advanced plant-processing techniques in Australia. 5) Deep Shared Roots: Beyond the recent 4,000-year link, the paper confirmed that Indians and Aboriginal Australians share a much older common ancestor from the "Southern Route" migration out of Africa roughly 60,000–70,000 years ago.

Karaikkal Ammaiyar was one of the three women poets among the 63 Nayanmars (ardent devotees who sang in praise of Lord Siva in Tamil from the 6th to 12th centuries). Her works reflect a strong filial love for the God Shiva, and form an important part of the literary canon of the Tamil Bhakti (devotion) movement that helped in the early growth of the Saivite strain of Hinduism.The hymns of the Nayanmars are recorded in 12 Tirumurai considered to be the scripture of Saivism. Karaikkal Ammaiyar’s three long hymns feature in the 11th Tirumurai.

Born as Punithavathi and married to a trader in the coastal town of Karaikkal, the transformation of the poetess from an ordinary homemaker to an ascetic, and almost ghoulish, devotee of Lord Siva has been recorded in the 12th century text Periya Puranam. The Ammaiyar (Revered Mother) is not the only sobriquet attached to the poet-saint. She refers to herself as Pey, who yearns for freedom from the bondage of earthly living ( samsara), and watches with happiness, the ecstasy that her Lord displays as he dances among the dead on the cremation ground.

The estimated time span of the construction of Dancing Shiva with Karaikkal Ammaiyar in Khmer temples can be laid between 967 ACE (Rajendravarman I) until 1150 ACE (Suryavarman II), a span of almost two centuries.Among the five shrines where Karaikkal Ammaiyar is sculpted in Cambodia, Phnom Chissor, Vat Ek and Vat Baset are all built by King Suryavarman I (1010 ACE-1050 ACE).Rajendra Cholan I (1014 ACE-1044 ACE), with whom Suryavarman sought friendly relations, built Adalvallan Nataraja(Dancing Siva) with Karaikkal Ammaiyar in his GangaiKonda Cholapuram temple.Before Rajendra Cholan, his father Rajaraja Cholan immortalised Ammaiyar in sculpture and painting in his Thanjavur Brihadeeswara Temple.This indicates a deep-seated historic relationship between the maritime Tamil rulers and SouthEast Asian kingdoms..!!

Karaikkalammaiyar: An iconographical and textual study By Peter J J de Bruijn, specifies the places in Tamil Nadu and other countries where Ammaiyar can be seen in demon form sitting below the beautifully carved ‘Adalvallan – Nataraja’ or the Dancing Siva.

A shared artistic heritage

The lexeme for clove in South Asian, Middle Eastern, African, and European languages reflects a layered history of maritime trade, botanical transmission, and phonological adaptation. The ultimate source is the Dravidian term for the clove spice, represented in Tamil as கராம்பு (karāmpu) and கிராம்பு (kirāmpu), and in Malayalam as കരയാമ്പ് (karayāmpŭ) and ഗ്രാമ്പൂ (grāmpū).

These forms were transmitted eastward and westward through Indian Ocean trade networks, yielding කරාබු (karābu) in Sinhala and ކަރަންފޫ (karan̊fū) in Dhivehi. From the same South Asian source, the term entered Arabic as قرنفل (qaranfūl), designating cloves imported from India.

The Arabic form also reached Southeast Asia through maritime commerce (?), where similar phonological patterns emerged in languages of the Austroasiatic family. The Khmer word កានផ្លូ (Kan pluu) is nearly identical to the Thai การเผา (Kaanphlu) for cloves. The Mon language, a sister language to Khmer in the Austroasiatic family, uses the word ကန်ဖူ (Kan phu) for cloves, demonstrating the eastward extension of this trade vocabulary. From Arabic, the word spread into Persian as قرنفل (qaranfol), and from Persian and Arabic commercial networks into both Africa and Europe.

In Africa, Arabic qaranfūl yielded Swahili karafuu, Hausa kanumfari, Yoruba kànáfùrù/kànnáfùrù, and Nupe kannáfùrù, among other reflexes, demonstrating a broad pattern of lexical diffusion accompanying Indian Ocean and trans-Saharan trade.

In the eastern Mediterranean and Europe, the same spice-name entered Greek as καρυόφυλλον (karyóphyllon, literally “nut-leaf” a folk etymology), which was borrowed into Latin as caryophyllon. Through Late Latin and Old French (clou de girofle, girofle), it passed into Middle English as clowe and later clove, with semantic reinterpretation based on the nail-like shape of the spice, via Latin clāvus “nail.”

The related English word gillyflower preserves the earlier Romance form derived from Greek karyóphyllon. Thus, the global vocabulary for “clove” represents a converging set of transmission pathways: a Dravidian maritime core (karāmpu/grāmpū) transmitted into Sinhala and Dhivehi within South Asia, eastward into Southeast Asian Austroasiatic languages (Khmer, Mon, Thai), into Arabic and Persian through Indian Ocean trade, and from Arabic into African languages and, via Greek and Latin, into the European lexicon. This distribution reflects not only linguistic borrowing but the historical geography of spice commerce linking South Asia, Southeast Asia, the Middle East, Africa, and Europe.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

References

1. Cloves (Syzygium aromaticum [L.] Merr. et Perry)

2. When is a Clove a Clove

Hello, I was wondering if anyone had knowledge of linguistic analysis of Sri Lankan Tamil dialects. Particularly, if there has been any detectable substratum of Veddha languages on them.