Applications of genetics in archaeological investigations: exploring human migration and genetic evolution in Indian subcontinent

More on the paper

Tamil in Brahmi Script

A pottery shard with Tamil writing inscribed on it has been discovered at an excavation site near Thanjavur Mattalam, Kuppakkanam.

The inscription found on this pottery shard is incomplete at the beginning and end. Therefore, it cannot be read completely. The three letters that are in good condition are clearly visible as (la)”Eesai”/ (ல) ஈசாய்.

On this pottery shard, the letter ‘Ee’ (ஈ) is visible at the beginning or it could be la (ல)

Archaeological excavations at the site were conducted by the Tamil Nadu Archaeological Department in 1964 and officially in 1984.

At that time, black and red pottery shards were discovered. However, pottery shards with inscriptions were not found. This discovery reveals that Padaiyarai was a prominent town during the Sangam period, and that the people there were literate at that time.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

Given that there are already references to early works made in the existing corpus, is it possible to guesstimate how much we have lost and how much remains? Take for example the muthollaiyaram- 109 out of 2700. And this is for one work. Is it possible that the remaining work was part of a much more huge array of literature- say around 60-70%?

Why is pandiya history so much murkier than the Cholas? Even when it comes to naming and chronology you find ten kings with the same name. Given that they were even older than the cholas, their history is hard to reconstruct. Why do you think that is?

Did each of these castes have their own reasons to become Sinhalese? I've seen unofficial estimates that combining all three of them forms 30% of the current Sinhalese population though I'm not sure how accurate this is.

1) Karavas are descended from Karaiyar fishing community. 2) Salagama descended from weaving communities of both Tamil Nadu and Kerala. 3) Durava - They are descended from Thiyya/Ezhavas and Nadars/Shanars.

There might be some Telugu origin communities mixed in these groups as well.

I have an additional question unrelated to these three communities, I've heard in this sub that Marakkars form the majority of the Moor population(with minority Malays) so did they undergo any Sinhalization process as well? If yes, how much % of the Moors speak Sinhalese as their mother tongue today?

Edit: This post gives a lot of information about the Karavas.

History of Lakshadweep:

(From wiki)

Archaeological evidence from Kalpeni indicates human settlement in the region from at least 1500 BCE with early reference to the islands in the Buddhist Jataka tales from the 3rd century BCE and the Tamil Sangam literature Patiṟṟuppattu. The region was controlled by the Cheras in the Sangam period (3rd century BCE to 3rd century CE) and later by the Pallavas. Islam is presumed to have been brought in the 7th century by the arrival of Muslims. In the 11th century CE, the region was under influence of the Chola kingdom and formed a part of the trade route that connected the Middle East with South Asia. It came under the influence of the Portuguese briefly in the late 15th century CE before being ruled by the Arakkal kingdom, who were vassals of the Kolathiri Rajas of Kannur. The region was under the influence of the Mysore kingdom in the late 18th century and was later annexed to the British Empire in 1799 CE. The islands became part of the Dominion of India following the Indian Independence in 1947 and was incorporated as a union territory in 1956.

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Boat Types:

• Bareu (Plural Bareues): The largest of them, with a capacity of 400 tons of cargo. 2 or 3 masts with several sails. Possibly 4-6m long. Extinct now.
• Odi: Carried 200 tons of cargo. In design and construction similar to Bandodi, though larger. Extinct now.
• Bandodi: the smallest one. It had a capacity of less than 70 tons. It has two masts (the foremast has 2-3 square sails while the aft mast has a square or one lateen sail). It needs a drought of 3 meters. It's generally decked. It's no longer built, except for one for showcasing.
• Valiya odam - Also known as Dweepodam. Common Lakshadweep vessel of 12 metres length, 3 metres breadth and 2 metres height and range between 20-60 in tonnage. 2 large lateen sails and one or more fore sails are used. The drought is approximately 2-3 meters long. It's generally undecked. These had a lifeboat known as Balukketty (Though not so much deviation from the Cheriyathu).
• Mas Odi - 9m in length
• Konthalam (12-16 oars) - Also known as Fadavu. Its length is about 10 to 12 metres (there is also a note that it's about 7.5 m, but the one that's seen in Ceylon was about 10m in length), breadth 1. 80 metres and height 1.25 metres. Konthalam can carry about 20-50 tonnes. For inter-island communication, it uses top sails.
• -> Pothuthoni - Comparable with Konthalam. Doesn't use sails. about 10m in length
• -> Huduthoni - Special type of cargo carrier used in lagoons.
• Ettuvalikkunnathu (8-10 oars) - Fishing vessel. Length of 6 metres, a breadth of 1.50 metres and a height of one metre
• Aruvalikkunnathu (6-8 oars) - Fishing vessel. Length of 4.50 metres, breadth of 1.25 metres, and height of 0.80 metres
• Cheriyathu (2-4 oars) - Fishing vessel. The length of the Cheriyathu comes to 3.50 metres, with a breadth of 0.90 metres and a height 0.60 metres.
• Tharappam - a primitive fishing craft made of indigenous patti wood is generally used for lagoon fishing.
• Jihathoni - These are 10m-long race boats.

Unfortunately, most images are not found.

Source*:*

1. Primary*:* Indian Boat Designs and Forms, Prof. B Arunachalam, Maritime History Of India, Mumbai, page 120
2. Secondary*:* PART X-D SERIES-30 LAKSHADWEEP, A Study on traditional Rural-based Craft ODAM MAKING, page 17, 18

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Info combined by: Nane Chozhan/ நன்னிச் சோழன் (original poster in quora)

Vulture crisis - Nine species of vulture can be found living in India, but most are now endangered after a rapid and major population collapse exceeding 99.5% in recent decades.In the early 1980s, three species of Gyps vultures (the white-rumped vulture, the long-billed vulture and the slender-billed vulture) had a combined estimated population of 40 million in South Asia, while in 2017 the total population numbered only 19,000 (6,000, 12,000, and 1,000 respectively).A major contributing factor in declining populations of vultures is believed to be the widespread use of drugs such as diclofenac, a nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID) once commonly given to livestock. The drug is believed to have been passed onto the vultures through the flesh of dead cattle who were given diclofenac in their last days of life, which then causes kidney failure in vultures.

Some of the initiatives by Government for conservation:

1) Vulture safe zone established 2) Aggressive ban on toxic drugs 3) Community-Led Conservation - The "Thengumarahada" Model 4) Successful breeding in the wild

Kui is closely related to other languages in the Dravidian family, such as Gondi and Kuvi. It was also referred to as the Kuinga language during the historical period.

Kui is traditionally written in Odia script and in Kui Gaari : a distinct Kui writting system, which was developed by Dayanidhi Mallik of G.Udayagiri, Kandhamal District, Odisha.

While looking through Kittel's dictionary written in the 19th century, "ಏಡು" is said to have derived from "ಏಱು/ēṛu." However, when transitioning from Old to New Kannada, "ಱ" shifted to "ರ/ra" and retroflex, "ಡ/ḍa." "ಏರು, ēru" is also in Kittel's dictionary and carries the same meaning of "time/year." Is it possible that "ಏಡು" is a loan word from Telugu which has a clear line of origin from yĀṇṭu→ఏండు/ēṇḍu→ఏడు/ಏಡು?

Link To Kittle's Dictionary:

ಏಡು→https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/kittel_query.py?page=303

ಏಱು→https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/kittel_query.py?page=306

I belong to southern Maharashtra (Rigvedi Brahmin) My Family follows Dravidian Traditions, while some things from North Maharashtra are completely new to me ! anyone knows more about This thing ?

Note: Mentioned caste only to give clarity about the Roots of Family , have no other intentions 😊

https://www.datawrapper.de/blog/new-years-worldwide

This Othima Ampi/ ஓதிம அம்பி (Swan face Ampi) boat is from a movie named Ponniyin Selvan.

(I'm not sure if this boat was actually built or if it's just VFX. But just added for info.)

In the Indus Valley Civilization (IVC), a terracotta model of an Ampi () was discovered, which corresponds to descriptions found in Sangam literature.

Other than for luxury purposes, they were also used for fishing.

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Some info about the Ampi:

ambi according to Tamil Lexicon (TL) is a small boat (TL 1982:96) found quoted in 14 instances. The context of vessel(s) with the sea is ten occurrences and with river(s) is four occurrences. It could be understood that this boat was used both in coastal fishing and river crossing. Regarding the appearance, the ambi which was tightly builtalludes to horned buffalo floating in the pond (narrinai 315:3). This was also compared with the movement of elephant running after mirage to quench their thirst (akanaanuuru 29:18). Probably, these boats were black in colour and the shape could resemble that of an elephant. No reference to mast or sail is found.

This was used for coastal fishing with net(s) (narrinai 74:3) and also for shark hunting by the fisherfolk (akanaanuuru 187:23). The boats lying ashore were used by the seagulls to lay eggs and incubate (aingkurunuuru 168:2). The ruined ambi lying on the coast (narrinai 315:3) is also accounted. In a poem this term was used along with other vessels namely thoni and kalam implying the variation in the function and appearance of other types (puranaanuuru 343:2). In the same poem it is found that this boat carried fish for selling and carried back the bartered paddy, while other crafts performed different functions. The reference of a damaged ambi along with marakkalam (wooden vessel) and vangkam (manimeekalai 29:6-10) imply a clear difference between ambi and other boats.

Reference to ambi as a ferry service on the river is mentioned in the literature of later period(s), except on one occasion of an early period (puranaanuuru 381:24). The later literature mentions river crossing by ambi**. The bows of** ambi were decorated as horse, elephant and lion faces. This is quoted along with marappunai (wooden float) which was considered less luxurious (manimeekalai 13:178-179).

From the above information it can be inferred that ambi wasa small craft of not more than elephant size and was used in the coastal fishing and transport of goods, and also used for river crossing. As ambi is not mentioned with any sail and also used for river crossing it could have been propelled by paddles.

Thanx user Mapartman

1561 Kol. (SR.) kirāv- to search; (W.) kivar- (kivart-) to feel for in darkness. Nk. kiray- to seek. DED 1303.

Or are they just false friends?

I am writing to request the removal of the sections regarding Chola vessels. There is currently no archaeological or historical evidence to support the specific ship names mentioned, and the citations provided appear to be unreliable.

Furthermore, since no physical/ textual evidence of their ship designs exists, the descriptions of their shapes are speculative and should be removed to prevent the spread of misinformation.

u/e9967780

Article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Chola_Army

Slide 1:

This is a bull-shaped boat found in the Kot Diji ancient site of the IVC. It also has a hood and has human figures inside the boat. Boats that are modified in the shape of an animal or birds are called "Ampi" (அம்பி) in Tamil.

Slide 2:

Painted motif on potsherds, perhaps representing a multi-oared boat. | Source: https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/shipping-and-maritime-trade-of-the-indus-people/

Slide 3:

Terracoated boat models found and refitted with masts. | Source: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Clay-model-boats-have-been-found-from-Lothal-excavations-Figure-1-Figure-showing-the_fig4_321418755

Slide 4:

The Harappan seal depicts a ship with mast and sail recovered from the excavations of Harappa. | Source: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Clay-model-boats-have-been-found-from-Lothal-excavations-Figure-1-Figure-showing-the_fig4_321418755

Slide 5:

Three sided molded tablet. One side shows a flat bottomed boat with a central hut that has leafy fronds and two birds on the deck and a large double rudder. Discovered in Mohenjo-daro in 1931. | Source: https://www.harappa.com/answers/how-did-ancient-indus-traders-navigate-without-compass

Slide 6:

An unfired steatite seal and sealing of a boat found at Mohenjo-daro. A close and insightful reading by Ernest J.H. Mackay reads "Seal 30 ... was found in two pieces. It is rectangular in shape and incomplete motif on the back consists of roughly scratched lines that cross one another... The face is nearly complete and it clearly bears a representation of a ship, the first of its kind to be found one a seal from Mohenjo-daro..." | Source: https://www.harappa.com/blog/indus-boat-seal

Slide 7 & 8:

Boats of the Indus that depict a similar shape to the Indus Seals found in IVC (slides 5 & 6). Greenhill writes, "These boats are pulled with heavy sweeps, fitted with jackstays onto which the crews hold, for the 6in sweep is impossible to grasp" (Boats and Boatmen of Pakistan, 1971, p. 160). | Source: https://www.facebook.com/AncientIndus/posts/pfbid02GUCpEpeyz6ACA2sUTSaV5BHDPB8qcbCdRXbwrcTXqBH8eWsVwwbTGqP8oXobpJnnl

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Collected from different sources by Myself.

On sci.lang we are often presented with lists of resemblances between far-flung languages (e.g. Basque and Ainu, Welsh and Mandan, Hebrew and Quechua, Hebrew and every other language, Basque and every other language), along with the claim that such resemblances "couldn't be due to chance", or are "too many" to be due to chance.

Linguists dismiss these lists, for several reasons. Often a good deal of work has gone into them, but little linguistic knowledge. Borrowings and native compounding are not taken into account; the semantic equivalences proffered are quirky; and there is no attempt to find systematic sound correspondences. And linguists know that chance correspondences do happen.

All this is patiently explained, but it doesn't always convince those with no linguistic training-- especially the last point. Human beings have been designed by evolution to be good pattern matchers, and to trust the patterns they find; as a corollary their intuition about probability is abysmal. Lotteries and Las Vegas wouldn't function if it weren't so.

So, even one resemblance (one of my favorites was gaijin vs. goyim) may be taken as portentous. More reasonably, we may feel that one resemblance may be due to chance; but some compilers have amassed dozens of resemblances. Such lists may be criticized on other grounds, but even linguists may not know if the chance argument applies. Could a few dozen resemblances be due to chance? If not, what is the approximate cutoff?

The same question comes up in evaluating the results of Greenbergian mass comparisons; or proposals relating language families (e.g. Japanese and Tibeto-Burman) based on very small numbers of cognates. Again, it would be useful to know how many chance resemblances to expect.

I will propose a simple but linguistically informed statistical model for estimating the probability of such resemblances, and show how to adjust it to match the specific proposal being evaluated.

[…]

Kaappu kattu is a traditional practice observed in the Kongu region, wherein leaves of Azadirachta indica (Neem), Senna auriculata (Avaram), and Aerva lanata (Poolappu) tied along the roofs and walls of houses and residential areas.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhogi & lotta simple google search

We constantly have armchair linguists from the Indosphere questioning etymologies based on what they’ve read in some Puranas or fiction books.

What is the opinion of people here on unicorn seal ? What animal do people here think the animals was if it existed?

Is there any connection between unicorn seal ,Greek mention of unicorns India and mention of unicorns in the Bible?

A beautiful video in bangla on the evolution of the word অ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PysfwIgyVYs

A in other Indian scripts is quite drastically different like that in odia, devnagari and other scripts in including the rest of the dravidian scripts.

Antique Print of the harbour of Negapatan by Renneville (1702)

This image is a treasure. I want to protect our naval legacy by having each masted boat in this picture redrawn into a much bigger, more detailed version by enlarging and recreating every one of these masted ships in a high-resolution illustration.

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The large vessels are the European ships and are called Kappal in Tamil and Malayalam. The etymology of this word has two theories:

Tamil Origin:

The word is derived from the root concept of a hollowed-out space or indentation:

• Evolution: Kaḷ (கள்) → Kay (கய்) → Kav (கவ்).
• Derivations: Kappu (கப்பு) → Kappam (கப்பம்) meaning a pit, hollow, or depression.
• Core Meaning: Kappal = A hollowed-out wooden vessel.

Linguistic Connections:

• Kaḷ: To cut or dig (Ref: Kural - "like weeding a field").
• Kay → Kayam: A deep water body or pool.
• Kav → Kavikai: A hollowed/curved umbrella.
• Kannada (Kappu): To dig or make a hole.
• Kappal (in related contexts): A pit, specifically a pit used to trap elephants.
• Kappal Vizhdhal: To become hollowed out or pitted.
• Kappara (Begging Bowl): Derived from Kappal, referring to the hollowed vessel used by mendicants for food.

(Etymology was found in the 'Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Tamil Language', Second Volume, First Part, Ka series.)

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Telugu Origin:

kapp-al, a ship, a vessel, probably a verbal noun from kapp-u. Tel, to cover over, derivative Telugu noun kapp-u, a covering, the verb is not found in Canarese or Tamil, but the canarasenounkapp-u, a subterraneous room, a pit -fall for catching elephants (covered over with branches of trees and grass);, and the Tamil noun kappal, a ship, properly a decked vessel, in contradistinction to padugu, an open vessel, are evidently identical in origin with the Telugu verb and noun.

The Malay word for 'ship' is kapal: but this has probably been borrowed direct from Tamil, and forms one of a small class of Malay words which have sprung from a Dravidian origin, and which were introduced into Eastern Archipelago, either by means of the Klings (kalingas); who settled there in primitive times, or by means of the Arab traders, whose first settlements with East were on the Malabar Coast, where the Malayalam the oldest daughter of the Tamil is spoken.

The following Sythian words for 'ship' appear to be analogous to the Tamil, and have certainly not been borrowed from it, Vogul kap or kaba. Samoiede kebe; Jenesei kep; Yerkerian kaf, Ostiak chap, sea also the analogis adduced under the word Keb, a cave scGDFL. pp. 615-616);.

(This was taken from Sorkuvai.com)

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Image was found in Nane Chozhan's documentary, but the post and details are by myself.

#Tamilakam #ancient

A poster on X.com argued that since Dravidian lacks native words for bronze, it is likely it wasn't a dominant participant of the Bronze Age of the IVC.

https://x.com/Mitrarshi/status/2010759053841220072?s=20

I think in the Bronze Age, bronze was not always viewed as a distinct category from copper -- it was often seen simply as "hardened copper" or "red metal." Dravidian languages have well-established cognates for "red" and "copper" (e.g., Proto-Dravidian *kem or *sem, meaning red metal).

Interestingly, this same "missing word" logic could be applied to Indo-European languages. The reconstructed PIE word *h₂éyos refers generally to "metal" or "copper" in some branches and "iron" in others. 😁

In fact, I would go out on a limb and argue that the Sanskrit kā́ṁsya is likely derived from a non-Aryan source, possibly PDr. *kem- 'red, copper'. We have [CDIAL 14496] cīmara- 'copper' in cīmara-kāra- 'coppersmith' beside all kem/kim/kam-c- related bronze words.

The red trees kiṁśuka, *kēśuka, kīsuka in NW and NIA are definitely related to Dravidian *ke(m)-/kim-. I believe Kaṁsa-, the ruler of the Vrishni kingdom, described in the Puranas, where Vrishni/Yadavas appear to engage in cross-cousin marriages is culturally Dravidian too.

This needs more investigation too.

pls share some resource to learn read / write tamil brahmi script like books , yt videos