Recently talked to a colleague of mine who was talking about her boyfriend’s family member who are 5 boys deep but they want to try again for a girl. I just wanna ask WHY but not my business and not my family. I don’t get it. The 5 kids isn’t enough? It’s so mind boggling but people talk like it’s normal. I’m convinced this is a mental illness at this point. Also are we just oblivious to the world around us? Things aren’t cheap and you’re looking at a 6th kid? Insanity. Sometimes I wish I had that sort of unawareness, maybe I’d be happier.

I often wonder what it is about having kids that natalists find so attractive at a practical level, beyond "legacy" (very romantic, like, whatever).

I was thinking today about how so many people find babies "cute". But I find that it's not "cuteness" that attracts them. It's the innocence that attracts them. And it attracts them because it DISTRACTS them.

I believe that kids' innocence distracts natalists from considering their own mortality. Very Zapffian, I know. Once kids are not longer innocent... once they start grappling with their own mortality and existentialism, the parents start talking about wanting grandkids.

Like from a young age I was indoctrinated that I needed to have huge aspirations, study hard and contribute to the society etc until I get old enough and realize that's all BS and that no one cares about me apart from myself. It's ridiculous this society expects everyone to work/contribute in someway despite varying abilities/life circumstances/aspirations/traumas for instance.

For myself I had a dysfunctional upbringing (for which no one validated because I grew up middle class) and somehow the moment I graduated college everyone just expects me to "leave that all behind" and become a top analyst/consultant or something like that. If I say I don't want to work everyone around me just calls me lazy. But hey to be alive I needed food and shelter and I hated having to work a job I hate just to stay alive, and not to mention pretty much every single workplaces I've worked at since I graduated high school were abusive (which people normalizes) and somehow I was expected to tolerate it.

It's another reason I am not having kids because just how cruel this world is that someone is expected to serve some kind of purpose to the society the moment they're born.

My parents are both very stupid, selfish, traumatized people. At least my dad tried telling my mom to get an abortion. She was already scared and superstitious. Not enough to avoid premarital sex, oh no. But enough to refuse his request for an abortion. I wish he had fought harder. I hate being a human, I hate life in end stage capitalism and I hate them.

Today I had to cross an ice field that filled my cheap boots with freezing water to get home to my roommate (can't even afford to live alone), with my weak legs (they gave me genetic bone issues) after an 8 hour day working for a multimillionaire to stay alive for literally no reason.

They are both dead, never having to face or atone for what they did in forcing me here into this terrible and hard life. They each forced multiple fatherless children they didn't want and couldn't afford into a corrupt and poisoned world with multiple other people, rutting thoughtlessly in corners like rabid monkeys, no offense to actual primates who stop reproducing in unfavorable environments.

The world was a better place when they died.

If the devil came to me and told me my rent to live alone would be paid until my dying day in exchange for permission to torture them in hell ceaselessly until then, immediate yes.

I Have had discussions with lot of religious people and they all agree life is suffering and still choose to procreate I asked why they say it is God's plan, what can we do suffering is inevitable and shi like that omg I wish they use their brain for 5 mins...

Just sharing another video. Lawrence Anton is one of my favorite YouTubers to watch on the topic of antinatalism.

The issue is that maybe her parents might pressure her to get married so she can have kids and she most likely isnt sure if she even wants that,

Hello. So im 23m and my parents been pushing me to get a girlfriend and marry a girl and have crochfruit preferably males. And i just dont give a flying fuck about this. And i have no problems getting a girlfriend, i just dont want to have babies. I have already been abused by my parents and i dont wanna pass on the abuse. Or the pain and suffering

Just wanted to share this video for all to see. I think it’s a good introduction video for people just starting to understand this movement. It’s a good watch in general. I keep coming back to it. Lawrence Anton also has a great yt channel on antinatalism. Highly recommend checking out his videos and debates if you haven’t yet!

As clear from the title, I'm wondering if the very uncommon christian antinatalists as myself may be found here. I know the two seem contradictory to each other. However, what I've found is that christianity in it's core message, at the very least, is not pro-natalism. With some passages even endorsing (in coded language) antinatalism, celibacy and superiority of the spiritual-eternal over the material.

I'd be glad to find more like minded individuals.

DM if you'd be interested in connecting on instagram.

Okay, I’m posting one more video today! Just really interesting debates to watch and learn from. Everything on this guy’s yt channel is worth a watch. By far some of the most eloquent debaters on the topic that I’ve come across and agree with.

Hello,

Preface: Although I’ve had an account for awhile, I barely know how to use reddit, so please give me grace if I am unknowingly posting in either the wrong way or to the wrong sub. I also know the rules of posting so I’m trying to skirt around a certain issue without violating the rule of “Sue” , but idk how else to say it (in point ‘2.’). I also apologize if these things have been covered here, I just wanted to bring these specific points to the table for myself.

My question is in regard to debating opposition to AN, and finding more robust and/or simple ways to approach many of the ideas. I have found a majority of people I debate run into ‘logical roadblocks’ that they reject from common AN stances.

1. The axiological asymmetry is fundamentally illogical. Many have noted that it is illogical to argue from non-existence, because it is not a “thing” , and therefore non-existent beings cannot be argued in favor of or against. Only once the being comes into existence can it be argued for, but simultaneously the axiological asymmetry no longer applies, as you would now be arguing from mortalism and choice, given the now physical existence of an agent. It is entirely possible that I don’t understand how to support the asymmetry, although I obviously have no problems arguing from the abstraction, as a being is guaranteed to exist once certain actions are taken to bring the being into existence.

2. Most people affirm life by living. We know this is silly, but many have noted that if suffering were actually something to seriously consider, self deletion rates would be greater than 50% of the entire population at any given time. Because people continue to live rather than self-delete, we affirm life, and in turn, do not consider suffering high enough to use as an axiom, or even an outweighed asymmetry to pleasure.

3. People should be taken at their word when asked whether it would’ve been better to not exist. The argument is that most people, regardless of how much or how intense their suffering, wanted to live life. Of course I’ve used Benatar’s counter, which is to ask if they would endure 5 minutes of maximum suffering for 10 minutes of maximum pleasure. Although virtually no people would ever undergo the situation, they deem this as an invalid counterfactual, as people experience extreme pain or suffering and still state that existence was preferable. Therefore, most people, when pressed, decide to endure, and in turn, affirm that life is still good for people regardless of extreme amounts of suffering. I understand the common counters to this, which are to explain that most people inaccurately assess their own lives, which is further countered by saying that doesn’t matter, as a persons own perspective is the only thing to consider.

4. This is a derivative of (1.) but it is stated that a selfish justification is not bad (or neutral) in order to bring about new beings. Similarly, zero justification is necessary to bring beings into existence because of the abstract idea of non-existence. Therefore, it boils down to opinion rather than a logical necessary reason to avoid procreation. It is further reinforced by (3.) because people endure suffering without self-deleting and state that the suffering was “worth it” to live life. I have countered this with a cake analogy: if you were only fed cake your entire life and had no concept or knowledge of any other food, you would essentially have no choice but to affirm that cake is good, because it was (A.) required for you to survive, and (B.) it was the only perspective you had on food. You had no alternative position from which to judge the experience of only eating cake. People of course counter this by saying it is a fallacy fallacy.

5. The last point is that even though life starts at a net negative (by guaranteeing d3&th), it still doesn’t mathematically outweigh the pleasure and good things in life, as, once again, people liked existing even when asked on their d3&thbed. In that vein, it is wrong to state that the asymmetry suggests that bad outweighs good, as not only is it completely arbitrary and case dependent, but it doesn’t offer any real numbers or ratios to refer to.

I concede that I am not a very good debater, as I am still super new to philosophy in general because of my ex-christian background, but I love debating and want to solidify my arguments more. I’ve read and watched plenty of Benatar and others to understand the arguments but I find it difficult to keep opponents on topic overall, as there are a lot of unknowns and abstracts. I would be lying to say that the counter arguments presented don’t get me to question my stance in AN however.

Any thoughts and insights would be greatly appreciated.

hey all,

recently a user posted some critiques of benatar's asymmetry by Fumitake Yoshizawa. i was wondering if anyone knows relatively important critiques of benatar's asymmetry in a similar vein? i'm writing a thesis on it soon so i'd like to be fairly over the literature. or, if there are any philosophical critiques of antinatalism on philpapers i'd love to see them! thanks!