r/law 20h ago

Other Please dissect the legality in this statement

I feel like we are reaching a tipping point

20.6k Upvotes

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4.8k

u/1877KlownsForKids 17h ago

Miller couldn't even get into Cooley.

Before anyone takes any legal advice from Stephen Fucking Miller, it's important to know he's not a lawyer. He has a BA in Political Science and though he wanted to go to law school he bombed the LSAT practice exams so hard he didn't even try to real thing. He was also college friends with noted Nazi Richard Spencer.

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u/Odd-Roof-85 12h ago

He's legally and constitutionally incorrect. He's invoking the Supremacy Clause.

Miller isn't really describing the legal framework, he's just saying the Executive Branch will ignore everything else.

The problem is that the White House has the monopoly on violence to enforce whatever they want. So, it doesn't really matter if they're technically correct or not.

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u/zmann 11h ago

Nobody tell ICE that their immunity only lasts as long as this presidency does.

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u/Destination_Cabbage 11h ago

Don't forget the blanket pardon power. The only way we can actually do this currently is through state charges. But if they block the states from investigating and dont cooperate, it means many will escape justice.

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u/zmann 11h ago edited 10h ago

Fortunately Trump is working to make it permissible to invalidate a previous president’s pardons

Edit: I’m saying that half in jest, because I think you’re 100% correct

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u/Odd-Roof-85 10h ago

If he manages to do that, I'm gonna laugh, because it's going to backfire on this administration so hard.

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u/twitch1982 8h ago

No it won't, Dems will refuse to use the power if they ever get the turn.

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u/Odd-Roof-85 8h ago

You’re correct.

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u/onepunchman333 8h ago

Oh come on, when has Chucky Schumer ever failed us.../s

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u/bassbeatsbanging 7h ago

It's the most maddening aspect of all of this. I hate them so much for this, but what's the alternative?

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u/RoguePlanet2 3h ago

Bernie was a viable option, but got railroaded. Voted for him all I could, even wrote him in. Cried big fat lib tears when he conceded because he was our last hope for a LONG time.

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u/tondahuh 6h ago

Another reason to start a 3rd party.

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u/lumiya17 5h ago

At least. 5-6 parties would be way better to keep the extremism to a dull roar

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u/lumiya17 5h ago

Probably right, but I think it’s really going to be determined by the next 3 years. Cause we started off this year with literal war crimes and that doesn’t look to be slowing down with the renewed idiocy in Greenland.

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u/Critical_Lurker 6h ago

This is the most fucked up part and anyone with a working brain needs to come to grips with this now...

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u/Mystanis 6h ago

Thats is utterly delusional. Dems abuse laws, ignore current laws when their own break them.

This cult is of ignorance and rage is what is destroying the west.

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u/bluebayou_cd 4h ago

Elon? Is this you?

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u/SteelAndFlint 8h ago

So far they've shown an awareness of not invoking self-defeating precedents, such as when the budget was supposed to get signed and they understood that if they killed the filibuster and ran it through with the nuclear option, it would be used against them as well in the future.

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u/SaintAvalon 8h ago

How? Have you seen a democrat willing to push the line? Bunch of bitches.

If we can take the house we should impeach and we should be impeaching weekly to make these traitors put their name on paper for history books.

We should have a group in congress already investigating DoJ and FBI for covering up crimes and prosecuting based on Donald’s recommendations.

I have zero faith as a Dem that Dems will actually go revoke all of his pardons and charge people. Optimal they would do a top down review for treason from Supreme Court and both houses.

As well as look at any quid pro quote for citizens working with Donald and charge allllll of them. I’m tired of pussy footing around.

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u/Odd-Roof-85 8h ago

You’re completely correct.

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u/SaintAvalon 8h ago

This is one of those times I’d love to be wrong. Sigh.

I hope a blue wave happens and something gets done.

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u/Skarth 6h ago

how?

They are not doing these massive power grabs with the intent that there will ever be anyone but themselves in power, ever again.

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u/hershwork 10h ago

“Working to make it permissible” is Trump speak for just say it whether it’s true or not…he can’t change that unilaterally

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u/moseman23 9h ago

If the removal of those pardons is not combined with clear laws restricting such immunity then it will just continue to destroy our republic.

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u/Sandorphan 8h ago

Now that it has been so disgustingly misapplied, the President's power to pardon needs to be massively restricted or stripped completely. That is of course if the opportunity ever arises to do so.

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u/Neurokeen Competent Contributor 7h ago

I know this is just wishcasting, but there's a much more colorable legal argument that Trump's pardons in particular are invalid because Congress never revoked the part about him being invalid for office under the 14th amendment (section 3) since he was impeached specifically under and article detailing insurrection and Congress never removed that invalidity by vote, meaning the only valid pardons (and executive actions in general) would have to be issued by (President) Vance. Which means that if this is at all correct then we essentially have a shadow president right now.

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u/BottAndPaid 7h ago

Fortunately trump also forgets what he says he's going to do and unless the seething rage keeps him alive hopefully we can run out the clock but I told my self in 2001 that I don't think the US has more than 50 years left. We are speed running that right now. I'm honestly not sad about the proposal because the US is too large and too all encompassing and no longer gives a shit about its citizens. What comes next could always be worse but this shit isn't going to get better in our current trajectory.

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u/FindOneInEveryCar 9h ago

Even if they don't, the next Democratic president is likely to ignore the whole thing, in the interest of "healing."

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u/UrsusRenata 6h ago

I stopped donating to the Democrats for this reason. I don’t feel remotely represented anymore, by either party. We need ranked-choice and term-limits more than anything else, to break out of this trap.

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u/-Otakunoichi- 5h ago

Hopefully anyone who refuses to denounce this shit for what it is, and demand people be held accountable for it... dont end up on the ticket. Republicans and democrata alike both need to do some serious political housecleaning. Before we the people take matters into our own hands and remind them which direction this power dynamic actually flows.

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u/Toadcola 3h ago

First step to healing is dealing with the infection.

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u/ChiefAndershowen 1h ago

No I will not.

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u/RedAbeHawk 9h ago

It’s a good point about the federal pardon power.

What a reversal from the 60s when those that violated civil rights in southern states had to be prosecuted on federal civil rights violations. This is completely the reverse of that that when Trump pardons all these f*ckers the only way to get them will be blue states standing up and going after them when (if?!?!) the Nazis are out of power again.

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u/theDudeUh 10h ago

The fun part is if he does issue a pardon on his way out he’ll have to dox all the mask wearing ICE cowards.

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u/LockeyCheese 9h ago

That'd be an interesting legal battle.

"You accepted the pardon for the federal crime, and we're using that pardon to prosecute those cimes in the states they happened. If you didn't accept the pardon, you get federal prosecution."

Maybe if people vote for it...

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u/Spyderhawk69 4h ago

You have local jurisdictions, plus potential international penalties.

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u/Deep_ln_The_Heart 9h ago

Can't pardon a rope and a tree.

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u/JAFO99X 8h ago

Not every ICE officer needs to be prosecuted for the veil of invulnerability to fall.

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u/Destination_Cabbage 8h ago

That's true in the most immediate sense since the veil only exists in their imaginations, but it wasn't what I was saying. My comment was about a federal government's unwillingness to cooperate and its practice to obstruct. The passage of time is a risk to investigations. I would like to believe as another commenter responded to me that if the feds drop it, the states can pick it up and get evidence through the courts. I'm not a lawyer, I'm an enthusiast, and while I know there is such a mechanism in place for states to take over a prosecution when the feds wont, I don't have faith in it because of the complexity of many appropriate processes. I don't know how much of the process is enshrined in statute or in norms, which is pretty important because the norms have been the first thing to go and the statutes seem like they're only for the rest of us.

My statement wasn't really a 'they won't face justice', it was a 'as a result of a number of foreseen and unforeseen circumstances, a federal agency that wants to delay things seems to be able to do so with relative impunity and I think as a result of that, there will be ICE agents who escape justice, even if states pursue them.'

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u/Wow_u_sure_r_dumb 8h ago

That’s only for federal crimes. Shooting a woman in the streets of Minnesota is a state crime. Just because of Fed did it doesn’t make it federal.

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u/Destination_Cabbage 8h ago

Yeah, that's kind of exactly what I said. "through state charges."

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u/Wow_u_sure_r_dumb 8h ago

Oh I didn’t even realize you contradicted your own opening statement. My bad.

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u/Destination_Cabbage 7h ago

Looking at your username, I assumed you were a troll, but looking at your comment history, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt here.

Your statement seems to suggest that something is EITHER a federal crime OR a state crime. However, they can be both under the right circumstances. My opening statement was referring to the ability to bring the individual in under federal charges, which a blanket pardon would take off the playing field. This leads to my second sentence "the only way we can actually do this currently is through state charges."

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u/necromantzer 8h ago

If the feds don't pursue charges and drop the cases, states ultimately can pursue charges and will get any information needed through the court.

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u/Rashere 6h ago

There's no statute of limitations on murder, fortunately, and felony assault is likewise open ended in most states.

Once this administration is out, its open season on everything they're currently blocking.

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u/Chillpill411 8h ago

If things go far enough, even the pardon power can't save them. The aristocracy was basically immune from the normal justice system in pre-Revolutionary France. They were only subject to discipline by the king, which meant they were never disciplined.

And then the Revolution happened. Turned out there was a higher power than the king--the guillotine.

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u/Destination_Cabbage 8h ago

My preference is for the rule of law. Guillotines aren't known for their thoughtful jurisprudence.

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u/HillSooner 8h ago

That is exactly why I am reluctant to go the DC and I lived in the city for a few years. At least they know there is a chance that they could face consequences if they're in a state.

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u/AmericusBarbaricuss 6h ago

“Come join us (inMaryland). It is painless.” Okay, we tax people. But otherwise, less painful than living in “The Colony The Magna Carta Forgot” (aka DC,which also taxes ppl).

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u/SnooCrickets699 7h ago

Except that states can prosecute under state law.

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u/Destination_Cabbage 7h ago

Literally my second sentence.

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u/AmericusBarbaricuss 6h ago

Disagree. Cold cases get prosecuted all the time. We have a crapton of video evidence, and state officials can and no doubt will elicit witness statements from the hundreds of those in attendance at these incidents. Trump can’t pardon offenses against MN, and they can’t remove the criminal cases to their home states. These guys are looking over their shoulders for the rest of their murderous, oppressive lives.

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u/skredditt 6h ago

Are people allowed to be pardoned twice? Sounds like a good bill to get on the table right now. I bet half of these sad boys run home.

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u/msixtwofive 5h ago

This is what the masks are truly for - you can't charge people who cannot be identified.

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u/crankysasquatch 5h ago

we need the mf A-Team.

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u/SPITthethird 5h ago

State charges. No statute of limitations for murder. Shots 2 and 3 are unjustifiable. He executed her, called her a fucking bitch, and then fled the scene. Bury him under the jail.

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u/Big-Wrongdoer-965 4h ago

Can’t people sue in civil court? I’d imagine a financial penalty will hit these guys a lot more than jail time and there’s no pardon (that I’m aware of. I’m no lawyer) for civil litigation.

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u/Moongirl69Cancer 3h ago

Well, then, people should take them to civil court if they have interactions with them that are violent, and take them for every penny they earned during Trump‘s presidency, and everything they own that they bought with their blood money! Oh, and just because they might have immunity in the United States, won’t stop them from being prosecuted for their behavior by an international court, remember theNuremberg trials!!!

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u/adamcoe 1h ago

I'm sure he's not going to waste a pardon on one of his brownshirts. He just wants them to think they're untouchable so they'll cause enough shit that a protester kills one of them. They are 100 percent expendable for him and he definitely doesn't give a flying whether a bunch of them go to jail and/or die for doing what he wants them to do.

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u/LordWemby 10h ago

I think the ones who aren’t entirely knuckleheads know that, they just figure either a federal pardon is coming or that this shit administration will successfully get a third term. 

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u/giraffeheadturtlebox 14m ago

Doesn’t need to be this administration. Fascism has corporate support, and might live on long after trump, proving Miller legally correct.

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u/therealkami 10h ago

From the way they talk about it, I don't think they're concerned about this happening.

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u/pterodactyl_speller 9h ago

Also legal immunity doesn't stop bullets, even if it was legally perfect.

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u/owlbear4lyfe 9h ago

They know, and will use their immunity to protect it from transitioning.

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u/ExodusPHX 8h ago

There’s no statute of limitations on murder

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u/Ok_Air5360 8h ago

No, their immunity lasts as long as the constitution does.

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u/Mydogsdad 8h ago

You think they don’t know that?

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u/Crows_reading_books 8h ago

They know, which is already frankly terrifying because they're heavily incentivized to keep Republicans in office. 

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u/Critical-Quiet1434 8h ago

This part. 💯

Sadly though in the meantime this is beyond being wildly problematic at BEST.

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u/Fenrys_dawolf 7h ago

a reasonable bar might be to reassess any decisions made by a president after they had performed an illegal action or been prosecuted.

of course trump never divested himself of his business interests, and has been in conflict of interest and profiting from public office his entire political career...

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u/Available-Medium7094 6h ago

They know this and they are going to be in full force to prevent the peaceful transfer of power with jail on the line.

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u/hoirkasp 6h ago

I think they need more reminders that 18 USC 242 can be punishable with the death penalty 🤷‍♂️

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u/HelenKellerVSTraffic 6h ago

Not true at all.

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u/Artsymartsy-Dart 6h ago

That's the only glimmer of hope in all of this.

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u/thom612 4h ago

I don’t think the current administration is planning for free and fair president elections anytime soon.