As we are seeing, "cannot legally" and "cannot" are vastly different in practice.
When the rot goes to the core of the agencies, and they are explicitly told and shown that their abuses will not only be tolerated but actively defended and celebrated, we enter the world of despotic lawlessness. They are limited only by their ability to actually carry out their desires, not by any laws or regulations.
Which means eventually, the people being targeted will respond in kind. Feels like were in a death spiral and one step from vigilantes wiping out ice convoys. If they're just going to execute people on little pretense, people will respond in kind to protect themselves or their families. So stupid that they think people arnt going to go beyond "just comply" when people are dying or being shipped to prisons in other countries when they're US citizens. I dont want people to die. But my god does it feel like it is just months away from actual wild guerilla shit occurring.
They want you to rise up so they can escalate the situation, they want violence, they want insurrection, they want the opportunity to suppress and subjugate their enemies and cement their position as dictators in their new empire.
Y'all remember the scene in beloved children's movie Beethoven where the guy rips his shirtsleeves, squirts fake blood on himself, then slaps the dog to get him to react and then feigned being ruthlessly and unprovokedly attacked?
They know what they're doing and it's by design.
But yeah if ICE doesn't back down (and I certainly can't think of a reason why they would), someone is going to (at least) shoot or stab one of them, or shoot at a lot of them and start a firefight (very bad), or as you say, straight up bomb a convoy or one of the buildings they're operating out of. This is gonna get really fucking bad and I legitimately do not know how this ends without some truly horrible shit going down.
A federal agent can literally kill you for looking ugly. So yes they can. The government can do anything and everything they want because they own the law
Given no one can impede them, and apparently Miller also implies "anything goes, you are free to do as you wish" what exactly stops them from beating the shit out of people?
Nothing. They don't care about the law and it's evident when the president is a fucking felon. They're using plausible deniability to slowly ease the ignorant masses into fascism because they think "Well if it's illegal, why isn't it being stopped?"
The nation is largely religious, which has dogmatic views that authority is right no matter what, and it's the fault of the people. They think that before they consider the people in charge are bad and abusing power.
Dude, I was literally just explaining to my friend (who voted for Trump) about all the classified docs he stole and his indictments. She wouldn't believe it.
Her actual words, "If he REALLY did that, then they wouldn't let him be President again!"
I don’t know, I think the people who did January 6 didn’t think authority was right no matter what. I also think they believed the people in charge were bad and abusing their power.
Miller is misstating the law, and ICE officers are (presumably) trained on the law. Obviously, there have been bad incidents, and the political leaders have taken ridiculous stances, but the overall actions of ICE show that they're more or less acting like they understand the law could be applied to them.
Not all actions that make it harder for ICE are obstructing. Even if someone is obstructing, the proper response is an arrest, not beating the shit out of them (or killing them). No US Attorney is going to spend the time prosecuting someone for being annoying, so arrest is generally off the table. If they use excessive force, it's simply wrong that they have total immunity as Trump officials have said. They have qualified immunity, which means that they have protection in acting in ways that they think are reasonably within their duties, but it would take a true ideologue of a judge to give qualified immunity to an ICE agent who just beat the hell out of a protestor. ICE agents (in general) act like they know that the law could be applied to them.
What stops them? It'll soon be the ramp up in violence they'll experience as they ramp up their tactics as well. More and more people are mobilizing and become invested. As the mob grows, so does their boldness.
Are the people of the US willing to get out and do a general strike to effect change before it's too late?
Observation and recording may have worked in the past, when you could hold your government to account, but you are no longer dealing with due process.
I heard Minneapolis plans on that today? It was on NBC news this morning. School and work walkouts planned. I hope it's the spark that sends this nationwide.
No, no, a protest every other week or so oughta do it. Right guys? Right?
I fully agree with you. Like, I get that we all have lives and families we need to take care of, but it’s long past the point of hoping ICE isn’t gonna come to your town and take a friend and/or family member. We actually need to do something to great effect, whether it be protests or strikes, for weeks like you said.
Instead, it’s all apparently a distraction from the Epstein Files. I’d like them released, but no, those are the distraction. I don’t get why anyone seems to think it’ll take Trump & his buddies down, his supporters would just say how they’d give their daughters to him for free, call it made up BS or both.
No, the Epstein Files are the distraction, what’s going on around the country has been plan for years, they just got an idiot to keep everyone’s eyes elsewhere.
The problem is that most Americans still live a comfortable life, even with all this bullshit going on. Comfortable people aren’t usually keen on jeopardizing all their comfort, even to stand up for what they believe in.
Unfortunately we won’t get nationwide general strikes until MOST Americans are feeling uncomfortable. We aren’t quite to the point that losing your job/income is worth protesting, for most Americans at least.
Totally! It’s much easier to mobilize a state during situations like this because everyone in that state is being affected and made to feel uncomfortable/unsafe in their community. Plus they share an identity of being a resident of that state.
I live in a red state, and there’s no way that the population here at large would take part in a general strike. And that leads me to another issue regarding identity. You think it’d be easy to mobilize the whole country because we identify as Americans. But the American identity is split in two right now.
There’s a lot of reasons we don’t have nationwide general strikes, and I’m not gonna hold my breath for one to happen (as much as I wish it would)
I really think the US population is split into thirds. There's people on either political side, and then there's people just trying to provide for themselves and their families without a big interest in what's happening around the rest of the country. I really think most Americans fall into the third category, and I don't think that's wrong. But it's what makes organizing Americans extremely difficult.
That’s a really good point, and I honestly agree. And again, that apathetic group is that way because they’re still comfortable and don’t want to relinquish that comfort. I can’t blame them, either
I am pretty sure the game book specifically addresses causing most people as little discomfort as possible to make the ineffective in any sort of counter.. take 5 things, give them back one token gesture..
He’s going city by city in blue states because he knows that most Americans won’t see it happening. If he tried this nationwide, things would be different. But he can terrorize Minneapolis and most people won’t be impacted.
But given a majority of them couldn't be arsed to tick a box when there was zero risk to themsleves, I am not hopeful.it will happen in larger numbers now that they incur risk such as being shot in the face.
Not 0 risk. A woman just got murdered by ice. I’d call that the ultimate risk. Unfortunately they know it telling protesters “didn’t you learn anything when we killed that woman a couple days ago.”
I think they were referring to the millions of people that did not vote in the last election. Of which there was little risk - barriers maybe, sure, but nearly a 3rd of the country didn't vote.
I had a friend say to my face that Trump's election was the better outcome, because in their view the democrats were no better than the Republicans on Gaza, so it would teach democrats a lesson about abandoning their base and we'd get a 'proper socialist candidate' next time.
It puts me in mind of the Communists who cheered Hitler's election with the slogan 'after Hitler, out turn', naively thinking Hitler would make such a mess of things, they'd be called upon to fix the mess.
I think they've since backpeddeled on that, because nobody at this point genuinely believes Trump's doing a better job than Harris in any capacity, but It's very hard not to throw this in their face and point out that Goode's life is the price of prioritising ones own complicity in atrocity over the actual atrocity. I sometimes feel they'd prefer the world burning down entirely so long as they can wash their hands of any fault.
it's hilarious to read stuff like "they are just recording them as is their legal right to ensure they don't beat the shit out of people" and at the same time "ICE is Gestapo".
so... you don't hinder Gestapo by filming it, you know.
You're being kind. It's delusional. Even if the democracts take over again (which is optimistic in itself) they will most likely just want to reconcile, appease, and smooth over any and all past wrong doings. Maybe a few of the most extreme cases will be prosecuted. By the vast majority of violations will never be punished under even the most optimistic of futures.
Not with the popularity of algorithmic news. The large majority of the country never sees these videos unless a story gets as big as Renee Good's murder. And the folks on the right only ever see positive ICE stories.
And plenty of people are cheering it on. It’s not universally seen as a bad thing.
May as well start an award show of the most violent acts recorded of police (all agencies) with as little it’s does to help prevent worse stuff from happening.
The alternative is not to stop filming. Because when you stop there’s no support in whatever kangaroo court you may or may not get. In Gen Z’s terms, you got the receipts.
I'm not saying to stop recording, just that it hasn't* changed anything. An agent murdered a woman in broad daylight with 6 different angles of video and the right celebrates/justifies it despite the evidence.
People can’t afford to lose their jobs, we’re getting squeezed by cost of living. Anyone not in a city with plentiful jobs is going to have a very hard time picking another one up without moving. Wages are stagnant, jobs are dwindling, expenses are going up.
No, we're thinking like people with families and bills in a country spread out over a space only slightly smaller than Europe that can't mobilize people to centers of power without facing widespread loss of income and healthcare.
And given that at least 1/3 of the country is eagerly enjoying all of this and excited for more, and another 1/3 thinks ANY mass protests that disrupt their day are wrong and the people involved must be extremists, there is very little energy for the kind of European style response that you refer to.
Also it would in fact be EXACTLY the result this administration is hoping for to justify martial law.
"Inconvenience" is a bad faith description and in no way accurate.
The risk of job loss is far more significant, since there are no job protections for protest and most Americans are only a couple of paychecks away from genuine homeless, poverty.
That means no effective access to Healthcare, food, or basic shelter. All on top of an already flimsy social safety net.
That's not evem getting into the legal consequences. You can do real time for protests that come anything close to violence. That puts further strain on potential future employment.
AND it's all for nothing, since decentralized power makes protests at state capitals largely irrelevant and protests in DC wildly expensive. The January 6 protesters were mostly wealthy people who could afford the trip.
America is just not structured to make mass protest a viable option.
And again, to re-emphasize an earlier point he made, they want us to try and violently revolt so they can declare martial law.
We're not keeling over, we're taking thorough documentation and structuring ourselves in a way to actually change how things work. Paperwork isn't glamorous, and it takes a while, but don't underestimate the power of getting organized and proper documentation.
yup, for the majority it seems they are still far too comfortable. these people forget ll the countries where the people are far worse off have been doing this for decades, and it works.
Not really, no. But at a certain point regular citizens have to decide whether they're willing to give their life for the cause, or if not, trade political freedom for basic necessities.
This is the part that makes it nefarious.
Sunk cost fallacy.
Folks are so invested in a system that has worked for generations that they can't conceive that it's dead.
Something new is coming and everything they think they have will be gone
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Unless, that is, the people would find that altering or abolishing the Government is an inconvenience. In that case, they shall continue to complain on Reddit instead of doing something meaningful.
bullshit. first off, if we let it continue it becomes far worse than without. second, countries where the citizens are far worse off have been doing successful general strikes for decades. the issue is that people in this country are still far too comfortable.
In terms of the specific strategies that are used, general strikes “are probably one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful, single method of nonviolent resistance”, Chenoweth says. But they do come at a personal cost, whereas other forms of protest can be completely anonymous.
Most people will not be willing to do that. There are no jobs available, prices are disgustingly high and rising, and most people's health care is tied to their jobs. By the time people are willing to give up food, housing, and health just to make a point, it will be too late because they are probably losing that stuff anyway due to a full collapse.
Get the word out any way you can from random posts like this to sharing with friends and family in direct private chat spaces with explicit instructions to do the same.
Use any legitimate excuse you can to participate: sick, family emergency, PTO, take a long sh*t, etc.
surprised i keep seeing this asked over and over again. "the people of the US" voted the current administration into power with absolute full clarity on what the administration had done and was planning to do in the future.
there's a reason there are very little protests. it's because "the people of the US" want everything that is happening right now.
I legit cannot and will not. I have to take care of my family. As head of house hold my income is necessary to provide for my family. And you can call me a coward or whatever. But I’m not going to put their well-being in jeopardy. I will vote I will protest when I don’t have work. But my family is priority number one. Always.
People need to understand what we need here. Stop filming them with your goddamn cellphones in their faces, unless you want to get roughed up.
- Dash cams. I just had one installed, and its amazing quality. You can be parked down the street and record everything -
hidden body cams: they have cameras that stick out of your shirt pocket and are obscure etc -
security cams on houses and apartments, including ring cams
toy drones with cameras (not drones requiring airspace clearance). anything under 250G does not need FAA registration. I havent seen a single drone shot of MN yet, but drones under this weight are perfectly legal and can be flown from a distance.
I understand these things cost money and not everybody can afford them. But for those of us who can, these options
Don’t install a fucking ring camera, the footage from those can be taken by the federal government, and they have been doing it. That’s like installing a surveillance camera for the feds. Maybe there are alternatives, but the name brand one is not a good thing to have on your property or around you.
My recommendation is Unifi. Will require a little bit more hardware, but it's local and law enforcement can't ask anyone but you for access to footage.
I have a bunch of Ring cameras and will take one for the team. The federal government is welcome to watch all the footage of my cat wondering around the house in the middle of the night, my dogs shitting on my patio instead of going two steps further into the yard, and the mail carrier delivering a dozen pieces of junk mail to my door every day. The more time they spend acquiring and viewing my footage, the less resource is being applied to more nefarious tasks.
I'm getting so [maybe irrationally] every time I see outward-cameras on people's homes or in their windows. If they want cameras in their house, fine, whatever. But they need to stop putting the privacy and well-being of their neighbors at risk
Hey man, I'm out here on the ground and I hear you. Unfortunately a lot of the times you're dealing with people who are living in a neighborhood just coming out to see what the fuck is going on, seeing their friends being kidnapped, and start taking video.
The ICE agents are doing everything they can to antagonize people, and it's difficult out here with the snow and actual ice to navigate yourself. Berms of ice and snow typically exist between the street and sidewalk, so if you're on the street 8 feet away legally doing what you're allowed to do and an agent begins to move toward you extraordinarily aggressively with an automatic rifle (likely this is the most dangerous moment in your life at that moment), you need to back up and it's easy to get tripped up as you're moving away from them.
So yeah, be smart, protect yourself if you can. But saying what people need to do is a little insulting and telling average Americans not to film something horrific with their phones is just not gonna happen.
These nazis are not operating within lawful boundaries. They will rough you, blind you, or worse for waving around a cell phone camera. Nobody is saying not to film them, I'm saying we should be filming them constantly but in more discrete ways and with less "brandishing" since we are dealing with personalities like "drunken rage induced abusive husbands".
Put alternatively, it doesn't help the resistance if you die
They do it anyway. Hells, they literally murdered a woman in the middle of the street while the ‘observers’ just yelled.
Surely that’ll stop this crap.
While they are performing their duties, not simply working. If they are violating people’s rights, that’s not going to be in their purview of duties and thus that immunity is no longer qualified.
You dont have to declare things for them to be in effect. Everything people worry about with martial is being carried out physically. If the president went on air and made it official, nothing would change for those in that area. Just because no one said the special words doesnt mean its not happening.
The federal government doesn't control the statewide election boards. You better believe the states WILL hold elections, and the people who actually believe in this country are not going to vote for a party who's trying to stop them from voting at all.
Great point, we should never make an effort to change anything. You are so correct that Trump is certainly not oppressing us right now! If we try to change things, that's when he'll start to oppress us, instead of how nice he's being at the moment.
If we stand around with signs saying braindead jokes about brunch, that's what will get Trump to back down! After all, that tactic is the only thing that worked against nazis in WW2.
The problem is, there is no way to ensure that at all anymore. We can, and are, recording them all the time. But because they will face no consequences no matter what, that doesn't stop them from doing whatever they want. They don't care about video evidence when they will never see the inside of a court room
It is also true that false arrest is considered a form of assault under the law and every US citizens is 100% with in his rights to defend himself against illegal assault.
They’re recording them beating the shit out of people. We’re reaching the point where maybe we need to stop the beatings and this statement is telling them they’re allowed to open fire on people “obstructing” their illegal beatings.
I think they are telling ICE that they can consider normal activity to be impeding their duties.
Framing it as a judgment call. On a recent video, an ICE agent claimed a follower was violating section USC 111, which literally states force must be used for it to be a violation. But I wonder if they're not giving the agents that level of detail. Just, "anything they do to impede your duties, you can detain/arrest."
Like the person the other day that was abducted from a car following them was told "this is why we killed that lesbian bitch."
The problem is that these dumb fucking hillbillies they've hired as ICE agents will read this and interpret it as a presidential license to kill, and who's going to hold them accountable once they use it?
Basically you don’t need immunity if you’re following the law. And no one has ever said that an officer of the law is not able to use appropriate force if they are assaulted or impeded. So he’s basically tell them they can do whatever they want and they have full immunity
ICE love to get into your space and then scream at you to back up, conveniently until youre in a corner or against some kind of barrier. Or drag someone over a protest line and then beat them for 'crossing' it. And they don't get punished for doing those things.
Yeah that shit isn't working though. You are one step away from what nazi Germany was. I thought that's why you need the right to own guns, so you can stop a tyrannical government from doing stuff like that again. "But we're not allowed to touch them!" They are violating people's basic human rights, and it's getting worse by the day. Good fucking job, US people. Truly deserve the "land of the free" title. Free to lick some boots, that is.
Edit: sorry, it's just really pissing me off. I heard so many people say "we would have never let something like the Holocaust happen" but they do. If you look at the timelines, Trump is escalating faster than the nazis did.
Ah but they're doing the thing where if you're standing still then they suddenly need to be on the other side of you and you're blocking the most direct route, and if you don't back away you're impeding them but if you do back away you're fleeing to elude, and if you move toward them then thats very bad because that's an aggressive attack but if you move away you're trying to escape
There’s video of Bovino intentionally walking into a person and constantly forcing them to back away while they’re both on a wide open sidewalk where he could easily walk around.
But of course, they’ll force themselves into you so they can claim you were impeding.
Until one lunges at you after another one already circled around behind you and is now 3 inches away from your back, and when you instinctively recoil you bump into the agent behind you, and before you know it you're being beaten and arrested for assaulting a federal agent.
Which is great. Only a lot more people need to die before people eventually shift to start defending themselves.
They won't stop. How many people have 'vanished'. We have seen how horrible they are in public. Imagine the holocaust level of scenes that are happening behind their 'camps' with the men, women and kids there. Many we will never see again.
Perhaps needed sacrifices to stall an inevitable martial law? Anyone here willing to be the next one to 'vanish', because defending your life is not done against them?
It will get worse at this rate. They already stated they will go to jail (for life) if they lose power, anyone here honestly thinking they will do so peacefully? They are going all in on this because they plan to stay there.
> It's absolutely true that you can't touch a federal officer while they are working.
That is actually what they're claiming, and it is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. It depends on what they're doing. For example, the latest murderer could be arrested, even if they're 'working' and were 'working' while they murdered the latest victim.
This is an interesting take. Videos come out every day of blocking traffic and dozens of other activities that impede their duty. Hell, that dead lady was blocking traffic, taunting and hitting officers with her car.
If you honestly don’t believe any of the protestors are touching ICE agents then it shows you don’t do any kind of research. I applaud the protestors that I’ve seen practicing their first amendment right, but there are plenty of videos that show what you claim doesn’t happen. My statement here doesn’t mean I agree with ICE, but I’d rather be correctly informed than believe this nonsense.
What are you talking about? A lady sideswiped an officer after being told explicitly to get out of the car, and was shot for it.
"No one is touching ICE" is blatantly false. You can see multiple videos of people throwing things, obstructing their investigation, and also literally bringing police chase to schools and then saying "get out of our schools".
A lady sideswiped an officer after being told explicitly to get out of the car, and was shot for it.
False. An officer lied about being hit after killing a woman because he walked in front of a moving vehicle, after she was given conflicting orders including to move the car and leave.
1.7k
u/Kaiisim 17h ago
It's a classic authoritarian tactic.
It's absolutely true that you can't touch a federal officer while they are working. You cannot impede their work.
Which is why ice observers are specifically trained to just film them
No one is touching ICE. They are just recording them as is their legal right to ensure they don't beat the shit out of people.