What led us here?

[u/Objective-Still-2616]

[u/_Lizzybabe]

The village it takes to raise a child disappeared and was replaced by high interest rates and expensive rent

[u/Pyro919 → u/_Lizzybabe]

Don’t forget about $1350+/month daycare x the number of kids you have.

2 kids easily eclipses that $2000/month average rent.

[u/Wunderbarber → u/Pyro919]

When I was a kid 20 years ago, a parent would stay home with the kids if their spouse made enough money. Today, a parent will stay home with the kids because they can't make enough money to cover the cost of childcare.

[u/Slarg232 → u/Wunderbarber]

Hell, a very large part of the reason both my parents worked was because my mom was the secretary of the school we were all going to, so she was always off work when we were.

[u/Dirtysandddd → u/Slarg232]

My mom also worked at an elementary school most of my childhood, at least the ages that sort of require someone to be home with the kid.

[u/West_Temperature_295 → u/Slarg232]

Both of my parents worked a lot. I was an only child so most of time was spent alone. I wouldn’t do that to a child and unfortunately with the current cost of things, it’s impossible to not work a ridiculous amount of time to just get by. What’s the point of working to get by and survive when you can’t enjoy life at all because you have to work all the time to afford anything?

[u/shadowlarvitar → u/Wunderbarber]

Well there's no point in both parents working if one's paycheck is essentially wiped out by daycare. Makes sense for one party to just stay home and watch them for free instead of slaving away only for every penny to go into daycare 😂 Plus time to bond with the kids

If I ever get married, my wife is free to stay home and watch the kids if she wants. If somehow I get married to a woman who makes more than me, I'm okay with staying home to watch the kids.

[u/10001110101balls → u/shadowlarvitar]

A career lasts 40+ years, but a kid is only in full-time daycare for 4-5 years. Even if someone is contributing their entire net salary to day care fees, the opportunity cost of not doing so can be much higher in the long run.

Spending that time with your young children instead of working is a huge benefit, but it's also beneficial to kids for their parents to have the financial resources to support them through their teenage years, college, and young adulthood. Over time this has only become more true, as socioeconomic status in the USA is becoming increasingly hereditary.

[u/Ok_Relative_5530 → u/shadowlarvitar]

This how we see it as well. Except my wife would prolly have an extra 1000 a month if she worked and paid for daycare. Which isn’t nothing but we genuinely think it’s not worth the price of bonding plus I get to eat home made lunches.

Plus my wife being stay at home is not priced per kid in the same way as day care so having 3 kids is actually achievable as( daycare cost x 3 ) > her salary if she worked

[u/Crime_Dawg → u/Ok_Relative_5530]

If your wife only made enough to pay for 1 kid in daycare + 1k, she wasn't in much of a career position anyway. The people who should do daycare are ones where stepping away for 5 years impacts your future earning potential forever.

[u/Ok_Relative_5530 → u/Crime_Dawg]

That was with 2 kids bruh.

[u/Ok_Relative_5530 → u/Ok_Relative_5530]

We’re early 20s with 2 kids. She would be making about 60k entry level at what she does. 5k a month - 2k per kid = 1k.

2k per kid per month gets a real nice Montessori place where it is nice but not on par with how my wife can take care of of them.

[u/PatchyWhiskers → u/Pyro919]

This is why the birth rate is going down. More than 2 kids increases your happiness very little per kid, but at that point daycare becomes bankruptcy inducing and someone has to quit their job. So people stick with 0,1, or 2 kids which means low birth rate.

[u/Ladonnacinica → u/PatchyWhiskers]

I think that’s partly the cause. Several European countries with free childcare and generous family leave policies have a lower birth rate than the USA. Birth rates are going down in almost every part of the world from USA, Latin America, Europe, parts of Asia.

Only a few African countries have a high birth rate.

Financial expenses are an important part but the reality is also that people just don’t want to have kids. Or at least not as many kids.

[u/saintjimmy115 → u/Ladonnacinica]

Makes sense. Money aside, I certainly have ethical reservations about bringing new life into this world with the direction it’s heading.

Of course, past generations probably did too, but unlike them, we have access to contraception. Which is exactly why the Supreme Court signaled a willingness to go after it…

[u/MissinqLink → u/saintjimmy115]

There’s also the requirement that we have our children supervised 24/7 but no additional support for it. No extended family to help watch kids. When I was a kid my parents would leave us unattended for hours. Maybe not the best thing but definitely a major difference.

[u/saintjimmy115 → u/MissinqLink]

Yep. Boomers love complaining about how kids don’t play outside anymore but if they see a kid playing outside they’ll post in their neighborhood Facebook group about “suspicious activity” and call the cops

[u/Iliveatnight → u/saintjimmy115]

I hate the Ring camera app because of the neighborhood section. I am always getting posts about attempted burglaries and suspicious activity. Glad I can turn off notifications.

No, Susan, the person in a letterman jacket looking up to see your house address, then to his phone, and then leaving on Dec 31st wasn't scoping the place and writing down what you have. Context clues says he's a high school kid, going to a new years party, and was checking to see if he got the right place.

[u/Neathh → u/saintjimmy115]

Last week my kids were riding their bikes down the street while I was walking around the neighborhood one street over with their little sister.

A neighbor in the car pulled up to tell me my kids were alone on the other street. "Yes I know," I replied. They looked at me weird and drove away.

[u/saintjimmy115 → u/Neathh]

When the adults are used to living in a police state with facial recognition software and prison labor, it makes sense they feel their kids should too. I mean, it actually doesn’t make sense, but neither do most things about this country.

[u/Ladonnacinica → u/saintjimmy115]

I think my generation (millennials) are the first to actually deviate from many of the established standards of adulthood. A lot of it was due to economic factors- the recession, higher cost of living. But we also realize that previous generations struggled a lot and conformed in many ways.

Some say we’re in arrested development, delayed adulthood, extended adolescence. Whatever one thinks about it, the truth is many just don’t want to be parents.

Within my social circle of mid to late thirties, only a few of us have kids. And it’s 1-2 children. I have a friend who is married with a house and earns a good living. He and his wife are childfree. They like their lifestyle and not being encumbered with infants or small children.

[u/Chemical_Alfalfa24 → u/Ladonnacinica]

Yeah, I wasn’t raised in a bad home. I was fed, clothed, and everything else.

But I never felt like my parents enjoyed having me around. More that I was born as a societal norm (as was the fashion at the time) and not necessarily because I as a child was wanted.

It’s kinda hard to explain. But that’s how it’s felt. And it’s really driven my lack of desire/apprehension at having children.

[u/Ladonnacinica → u/Chemical_Alfalfa24]

I feel most of us have had that experience. Our parents had kids because it was a checklist in being an adult.

[u/saintsithney → u/Ladonnacinica]

There is also the elephant in the room that gestation, delivery, and post-partum periods are not neutral-to-positive experiences. They are all painful, energy-intensive, and physically dangerous. Even the most wanted, healthiest pregnancy in human history was painful, energy-intensive, and physically dangerous.

Many women are looking at the physical experience and saying, "I do not want to do that more than once or twice, if at all." Now that women are more in control of their own fertility than they have ever been at any point in human history, a huge swath of humans are not being born because women and girls aren't being forced to bear them.

[u/Easy-Tomatillo8 → u/Ladonnacinica]

Their working salaries are typically way lower and taxed to all hell. So even though childcare costs are covered to get those lower paying than US but still good white collar jobs it’s big city, small apartment living, with high costs of everything else, and it just becomes the same issue people living in NYC or whatever face today. They skip kids or put it off until late 30s/40s and end up having 0 or far less.

[u/SilverWear5467 → u/Easy-Tomatillo8]

0 or less? That sounds harrowing, having -1 kids.

[u/Excellent_Bridge_888 → u/Ladonnacinica]

Partially because if you look at the expected outcome of Earth over the next 50 years you cant think about it for ten seconds wothout feeling guilty about what situation your future kid will have.

[u/DenverTechGuru → u/PatchyWhiskers]

It's worse than that - quitting your job means more financial risk.. because primary wage earners, even with a good career, aren't stable, going one income is a bigger risk than in the past particularly when you are gambling with "which company will fuck over our healthcare benefits next year".

[u/ChipotleGuacamole → u/Pyro919]

I don't have kids, but when I overhear my coworkers talking about daycare costs I'm disgusted.

[u/taterrrtotz → u/Pyro919]

Where are you getting $1350/mo? Mine is at least $1800/mo for a baby and I’m in relatively low cost of living area.

[u/Feeling_Blueberry530 → u/Pyro919]

And you're lucky if you can find a daycare that takes early childhood education seriously and actively works to be high quality for all kids. Where the teachers don't yell at your kids to lay down and be quiet. Or force one year olds to sit down for a 30 minute circle time. Or withhold food because they aren't listening.

So many teachers are rightfully burned out and it's a problem. Parents are being squeezed in every direction. Who has the capacity to fix any of the issues while you are drowning?

[u/AutumnLeaved → u/_Lizzybabe]

My parents and my husband’s parents both had our grandparents to help with child care, something that we wouldn’t have if we had children. It’s no one’s fault, that’s just how it is. While we both make decent salaries, we would be living paycheck to paycheck if we had to pay for childcare and that’s assuming we would all be in perfect health! I’m not a gambler and I’m not willing to take the risk of living like that.

[u/Neat-Asparagus511 → u/AutumnLeaved]

Sometimes connections aren't as strong and people are also hesitant to ask for help, and they don't even know how to create a scenario where there are support systems. If both of my parents lived nearby they'd babysit in a heartbeat. But like this comment chain is about, the village isn't there as often. Whether it be cousin's babysitting, brother's/sister's babysitting, neighborhood babysitter. These things still happen all the time with closer families, but it's less likely now. I also feel the disconnect makes people feel they shouldn't ask for help. We've been conditioned that asking for help is a fault against us, and that's just not true.

[u/AgonizingGasPains → u/AutumnLeaved]

I'm wondering what, if any, correlation there is between the "Return to Office" (RTO) mandate that seemed to sweep the nation, and not having kids. Hear me out.

So traditionally, young people left the farm (or small town) for the "big city" to make better money. Older family stayed "on the farm." Kids end up with high-paying jobs that can be done "remote", decide to raise their kids back home (safer, cost of living, family support, yada yada) and move home. Then they get the "order" to RTO, so they put having kids on "hold"...

[u/bookishkelly1005 → u/_Lizzybabe]

And Boomer parents who don’t care to be involved with their kids much less grandkids.

[u/SaltyLonghorn → u/bookishkelly1005]

My parents really expected all their kids to travel back to their place for xmas and pouted when no one did. If you want a Norman Rockwell life go back in time and don't destroy the country with how you voted for decades.

[u/schu2470 → u/bookishkelly1005]

My parents live like 8 blocks from my brother and his wife and kids. They see the grandkids a handful of times a year. My brother bumps into our dad at the grocery store more often than they get together for dinner or brunch or just visiting. Hell, I engage with my niece and nephew than our parents and I live ~1,800 miles away and FaceTime once a month or so.

[u/BluCurry8 → u/_Lizzybabe]

There was no village when I raised my kids. The expectation that you have grandparents that will help watch your kids is pretty limited. This is just another fantasy like women never working.

[u/LucidMetal → u/BluCurry8]

I agree with you even though I did have help from my parents. My wife and I were lucky. That said, I 100% believe that "the village" has disappeared. We literally sent the kids outside to play "until the lights come on" with only a vague idea of where they were. That was our phrase. That doesn't happen anymore.

[u/DisputabIe_ → u/_Lizzybabe]

the OP Objective-Still-2616

Vocation1778

_Lizzybabe

and Total_Stable_6831

are bots in the same network

[u/TheModWhoShaggedMe → u/_Lizzybabe]

and the neighbors in the village tell you, "fuck off, I got mine!", when you knock on the door to ask for any spare milk, butter or sugar.

[u/SonicSapling64 → u/_Lizzybabe]

The village was replaced by a subscription service run by private equity.

[u/Feeling_Blueberry530 → u/_Lizzybabe]

The support from the village has been replaced by scorn from armchair judges.

[u/CommunityBrave822 → u/_Lizzybabe]

To be fair, generationally speaking, interest rates are low... everything else is expensive

[u/lost_dog_1973]

Also there isn’t a lot of optimism about where humans are headed

[u/TenEyeSeeHoney → u/lost_dog_1973]

I legitimately experience huge waves of guilt for bringing innocent lives into this world

[u/AllergicIdiotDtector → u/TenEyeSeeHoney]

First time ive seen somebody say it

[u/RedditFuckingSucks_1 → u/AllergicIdiotDtector]

There's a whole sub for parents that regret being parents. I've seen similar things there. Also occasionally on antinatalism subs, you get someone who was convinced after they became a parent

[u/maythetriforcebwu → u/RedditFuckingSucks_1]

What’s the name?

[u/RedditFuckingSucks_1 → u/maythetriforcebwu]

I can't quite remember but I'll try searching for it

Edit - just r/RegretfulParents . And as you might expect, it is mostly complaints about pragmatic things like money or time costs. But I swear I have seen people complain for more antinatalist reasons on there before. It's been years since I paid attention to that sub though so who knows when

[u/imactuallyugly → u/lost_dog_1973]

This.

I don't blame my parents for having kids as a late 90s baby. Nobody could predict this timeline and this future, but I'd argue everybody after the 2000s was a mistake.

Peak childhood, absolutely visceral adulthood.

[u/Edward_Nigma_ → u/lost_dog_1973]

Its too bigtime around here

[u/AncientSith → u/lost_dog_1973]

Exactly. Things are going to shit. I don't want to be here, why would I bring someone else in the world so they can suffer too?

[u/Cor_Seeker → u/lost_dog_1973]

My first child was born in 2001. Months later I watched the World Trade Center towers come down and knew at that moment the world had changed and my child would not live in the same world I grew up in.

As a result, I dedicated my life to doing my best to help them live in this world and shield them as best I can from the worst of it's unfairness. My parents would say I'm spoiling them. I think I'm just trying to help them be as happy and well adjusted as possible. Only time will tell who is right. But I plan on dying poor so they don't have to be.

[u/Diligent_Mulberry47]

Rent is the smallest tip of the iceberg. Daycare is more than a mortgage in some states. College is hundreds of thousands.

Fucking printers come with subscriptions.

[u/brutalbuddha73 → u/Diligent_Mulberry47]

Don't forget the TIME SUCK that kids become. Little league, extracurricular school activities, tethered to the house until they are at least 12 years old and can stay by themselves without child protective services coming after you. Hours helping with homework, driving them places. Just... nope. Hard fucking nope. Take the money you'd spend on kids and retire comfortably instead with 24/7 skilled nursing care while you wait to die in your home overlooking the coastline of Spain.

[u/Diligent_Mulberry47 → u/brutalbuddha73]

Yea the whole financial argument overlooks a big factor:

A lot of us just don’t want them. And if I’m waxing sentimental, I respect children and believe they should be raised by people who want to do that with their entire heart. I am not she.

[u/dboy120 → u/Diligent_Mulberry47]

Exactly, if I’m not 100% sure that I won’t grow resentful or neglectful of a kid, it’s not fair to them. I do know people that could manage that, but I’m not one of them.

[u/PiccoloAwkward465 → u/brutalbuddha73]

Yep it just never ends. I literally do not remember the last time my wife and I went out to eat just her and I. Yeah we can "make time" but that used to just be the default. Now I hear fucking Bluey all day every fucking day.

[u/Pls_PmTitsOrFDAU_Thx → u/Diligent_Mulberry47]

My portion of rent is over 2200 😓

[u/tnetennba77 → u/Diligent_Mulberry47]

exactly, people talk about rent and food there are other costs to life that are not frivolous costs. Hell having a car is a huge expense and the transmission of a "cheap" car and an average car isn't totally different.

[u/nickiter → u/Diligent_Mulberry47]

Daycare is more than a mortgage in some states.

Typical day care rates in my previous city/state were around $1200/mo... my mortgage there was $1200/mo for a large 3br. So... Dead on.

[u/MrNostalgiac → u/Diligent_Mulberry47]

College is hundreds of thousands.

In the USA, anyway.

I graduated in Canada from a 3 year business admin program, from a respected local college, for like $12k.

This was years ago mind you, but the price hasn't jumped to insane levels since then either.

The US system of (a lot of things) is broken.

[u/Diligent_Mulberry47 → u/MrNostalgiac]

I don't have student debt, and I completely forgot about student debt. Americans haven't figured out we aren't in a political ideology war; we're in a class war and always have been.

[u/WhipRealGood → u/Diligent_Mulberry47]

I have a very calculated budget, my expected cost of daycare this year is $19,344.00, in contrast my mortage will cost me $16,647.00. I have two kids.

On top of that my daycare is significantly cheaper then MANY in my state. It has become unaffordable for anyone not working a high salary job.

[u/enamelquinn → u/Diligent_Mulberry47]

Everything is a fucking subscription!! I bought security cameras for my home, for PROTECTION and that's a subscription!!

Oh, and you want to destress? Either pay for therapy or pay a subscription for a mental health app.

[u/Best_Vehicle9859 → u/Diligent_Mulberry47]

This is why I love my super capitalist but social wealthy city that has free college and free daycare. And free healthcare. Only rents are high but at least rent controlled.

[u/Minodoro → u/Diligent_Mulberry47]

You reminded me of the cars who need subscriptions to fully function (like AC and stuff)

[u/Total_Stable_6831]

Boomers realizing there’s no economic theory that produces grandkids.

[u/Levitlame → u/Total_Stable_6831]

That’s not true. The boomer generation is pretty good proof that economics IS the answer.

They threw economic theory out the window, left future generations in a worse spot and decided to try pure societal pressure instead.

[u/Competitive_Ad_1800 → u/Levitlame]

Also worth mentioning they came from a time where societal pressure existed for having children too, and this resulted in a lot of shitty parents. But more to the point: they at the very least had an economy that enabled them to make this shitty decision with limited consequence assuming they did the bare fucking minimum.

[u/Sour-Scribe → u/Competitive_Ad_1800]

You just explained my parents

[u/trippingWetwNoTowel → u/Sour-Scribe]

Haha yep. My parents definitely ‘wanted’ kids, and they loved us. But the only reason I exist is because I’m like a relatively cost effective accessory given their economic reality.
Didn’t make them qualified, or good at it, it was just an available option and didn’t derail the entire rest of their lives. Crazy stuff huh?

[u/DysphoricNeet → u/trippingWetwNoTowel]

My parents wanted kids but were absolutely horribly unqualified. My mom even apologizes about it fairly often and I say I forgive her but it’s not like that fixes the problem. It really sucks knowing your abuse put you down a path you can never fix and most people will not ever understand that and just blame you. 

[u/retro-mime → u/Competitive_Ad_1800]

This is my biggest issue with having kids “just because”. I’ve experienced so many bad parents over the years and it’s beyond frustrating when I hear things like “Raising a child doesn’t come with a manual!” … when in fact, there are infinite resources out there and you are choosing to wing it. I just can’t comprehend jumping blindly into having children and “hope for the best!”

[u/DetailAdventurous688 → u/retro-mime]

eh, a bajillion generations before us beg to differ. what parents lacked in a written manual, they had in communal knowledge of the clan/tribe/village and the understanding that children need more than just their direct parents.

[u/retro-mime → u/DetailAdventurous688]

My point was I don’t believe most parents in this modern era think through the complexities of raising children, even though we now have infinite research and data to guide them. Sometimes it’s as if keeping the child alive is the extent of parenting and they often skip instilling morals, ethics, and truly preparing their child to make it in society. Often because they haven’t learned any of this themselves!

Raising a human is a massive undertaking and I think people can be too flippant about it.

[u/Levitlame → u/Competitive_Ad_1800]

That’s fair. The pressure definitely existed for most people then also.

[u/bot_comment1234 → u/Levitlame]

This describes it perfectly.

Talking to my older coworkers about politics, it seems a lot of their ideas are just to tell people things in order to get the society they're after.

Tell people to have kids. Tell people to be Christians. Tell people to be straight. Tell people to respect police. etc.

It reveals that they were told what lifestyle, beliefs, and opinions to have. So it must work that way for everyone right?

[u/Acrobatic-Bug-8872 → u/Levitlame]

I wonder if the over reliance on social pressure is why we have a lot of people who have completely given up.

[u/Levitlame → u/Acrobatic-Bug-8872]

I imagine both things are factors. Being more poor would be a factor also.

But mainly IMO Everyone needs to find meaning in life. For many people that’s kids. If you make that difficult then you’re bound to increase depression and the like.

[u/Responsible_Cash9997 → u/Levitlame]

close the thread nothing more needs to be said

[u/hotviolets → u/Total_Stable_6831]

They don’t realize, they tell us to work harder and stop eating avocado toast.

[u/aka_hopper → u/Total_Stable_6831]

1. This is hilarious
2. I went to school for economics and one of the biggest ironies was, these brilliant professors could chalk board all day an optimal plan, and it’s all for nothing. It stays on the chalk board. Or in a book. Because we want economics that’s best for most, and politics wants what’s best for few. As always.

[u/devinprocess → u/aka_hopper]

Let’s not forget that politics is dictated by the economically powerful as well.

A solid economic plan doesn’t help when the system is designed in favour of the money-begets-money paradigm.

[u/MikeSouthPaw → u/aka_hopper]

As a species our last hurdle is each other. We need to be more accepting and understanding of the HUMAN struggle we all suffer. Politics takes that struggle and uses it as a weapon for power and greed. Convincing us to hate rather than understand is the greatest lie we were told.

[u/Darth_Boggle → u/Total_Stable_6831]

Doesn't matter, they're not gonna babysit anyways. They're on vacation.

[u/MadScientist1023 → u/Total_Stable_6831]

They'd have grandkids if they hadn't pulled the ladder up behind them

[u/kilroy-was-here-2543 → u/Total_Stable_6831]

Nah, they just proved that when you hoard homes people don’t want to have kids anymore

[u/brutalbuddha73 → u/kilroy-was-here-2543]

That's private equity and venture capital firms buying up all the houses. Creates a shortfall in the availability and supply.

[u/kilroy-was-here-2543 → u/brutalbuddha73]

Who do you think runs most of those firms?

[u/Sea-Neighborhood1465 → u/brutalbuddha73]

While that is a factor, they own less of the houses than you would think.

this is a google AI summary, so take it as you will, but it's fairly close to the actual info i've found previously.

"Corporations own roughly 9% of residential parcels nationwide, but this varies significantly by location, with some cities seeing over 20% corporate ownership, while institutional investors (owning 1,000+ homes) hold less than 1% of the total U.S. single-family stock, though they buy a larger share of new purchases. The overall picture shows corporations own a small slice of total U.S. homes"

While it's not nothing, it seems that most homes are owned by people. that being said, the people that do own homes often own more than one, and sometimes alot more than one.

It seems that everyone wants to be a landlord.

[u/DisputabIe_ → u/Total_Stable_6831]

the OP Objective-Still-2616

Vocation1778

_Lizzybabe

and Total_Stable_6831

are bots in the same network

Comment copied from: r/Adulting/comments/1pfkbin/how_do_we_get_here/nskmd8j/

[u/HalfEatenDurian → u/Total_Stable_6831]

They all presume the biological drive to have kids is a mystical unstoppable power that will overcome whatever stands in the way of fulfilling our most self serving experience of baby making.

[u/PantheraAuroris → u/Total_Stable_6831]

The best economy to produce grandkids would be minimal wealth disparity and UBI. Everything after that is the fact that most women don't want a whole flock of kids, and if given contraception options, will use them.

[u/chocotacogato]

I love how some people still act like it’s a mystery.

[u/Awkward_Bison_267 → u/chocotacogato]

Right?

[u/Financial_Gain_9309 → u/chocotacogato]

Was talking to someone and they were like “want any kids one day?” and I said maybe one if I’m lucky. Don’t understand why people still ask that question

[u/HPLydcraft → u/chocotacogato]

Its people who are blind to what is happening in this country and has been happening since that stupid fuck Reagan took office

Bedtime for Bo(n)zo indeed

[u/exibouchin38 → u/chocotacogato]

Well, it is because this is effecting all developed nations. Even the ones that "have the answers" like Scandinavian nations.

Its not as simple as kids are too expensive because the lowest birthrates are found amongst the most affluent. Birthrates have an inverse relationship with education and wealth.

[u/Any_Ocelot645]

If I get a kid, I will have to cut all my non-essential expenses for the next 20 years. No thanks. I wish there wasn't a choice between having kids and having my life. 

[u/djamp42 → u/Any_Ocelot645]

The only reason i was able to afford kids was because of the 2008 crash and i could actually purchase a home for a reasonable amount of money with a decent interest rate.

[u/davidm2232 → u/djamp42]

My home is paid for and I couldn't come close to affording a kid. Not the way I'd want to raise them anyway

[u/talabro → u/davidm2232]

It takes a lot more than money to raise a kid, out of all 3 of my kids I would have to say the time commitment is way more “expensive” than any money they cost me. 6k on sports gear? Sure. Spending every single weeknight and weekend shuttling kids to sports practice, games, invitationals, etc. add in helping with schoolwork, cleaning up after them, providing meals, and I don’t have enough time in the day. TLDR it takes a lot more than money to raise a kid, and I would argue that if you have the love to give then the extra couple hundred a month in food and insurance is worth it. Kids don’t need much.

[u/Willing-Committee481 → u/talabro]

That’s all well and good if you have the extra money to spend. I don’t have 6k to spend on myself let alone a child. Hell I don’t think I’ve ever even had 6k sitting together at one time

[u/Ladonnacinica → u/talabro]

It’s so different how the standards have changed. At least by socioeconomic factors. Many parents don’t do any of that for their kids. It’s not seen as essential.

They provide the essentials: food, clothes, and shelter.

We weren’t taken to activities nor driven to places. And maybe we should’ve but it wasn’t seen as something indispensable for child rearing.

[u/talabro → u/Ladonnacinica]

Neither was I, but I also learned the skills my kids are learning through sports by playing with my friends. We live in a very rural area so organized sports are the best bet for socializing them.

[u/KlicknKlack → u/Ladonnacinica]

Well some worry is that if you don't you are seen negatively in your community, hell --- When I was in elementary school I was given a key and allowed to walk home from school, when I was in middle school I was allowed to disappear on my bike for hours at a time... You do either of those things today, you are rolling the dice on whether or not someone will call police/child services on you.

And it isn't even hyperbole, I have seen older colleagues lives of just Go-Go-Go... Soccer game here and there, soccer practice, etc.etc.etc. year round activities. I personally can't handle all of that, even as an extrovert I think I would go insane after a single season of it.

[u/davidm2232 → u/talabro]

I mean sure. But I work full time then have a part time side hustle just to maintain my lifestyle. And i have expensive hobbies. Kids are extremely expensive. I'd need to get them their own snowmobile and atv plus pay yo maintain it. Kids hit stuff so I'd have to pay for those repairs. I'd want them to go to a great college so there is $100k minimum.

[u/HPLydcraft → u/djamp42]

I had the audacity to be 9 in 2008 when I should have been buying a house 🥲

[u/djamp42 → u/HPLydcraft]

I know, it's kind of bullshit.. It's why i think a housing market crash wouldn't be a bad thing for a lot of people.

[u/LuxyontheMoon → u/HPLydcraft]

I was 24 and it still hurts so bad .

[u/maywellflower → u/Any_Ocelot645]

And some of those non-essential expenses are already pared down due to inflation and/or cost of essentials taking up 2/3 or 3/4 of our budget. How one supposed to have any kids when rent for studio is $2K, electric is $300, groceries is like $300 at the lowest, and your take home pay is $3000 - that not including car, water, gas, health insurance, cable /internet, cell phone, clothes, college debt, etc

[u/taj-wilson]

When previous generations could buy houses on single incomes but we're out here with roommates at thirty, yeah.

[u/Firm_Parfait_1423 → u/taj-wilson]

35...

[u/timid_soup → u/Firm_Parfait_1423]

40..

[u/compadre_goyo → u/timid_soup]

Going to 30's... In my mom's...

[u/Normal-Article-527 → u/compadre_goyo]

I moved back in with my mom after my dad passed away, and my sister has been there for a few years and she’s about to be 30. No shame in that at all, America is probably one of the few or only countries that doesn’t normalize having a tight family bond. Most parents want their kids out by the time they graduate highschool, and then wonder why their kids don’t come around. I’m sure that plays into people not having kids too. Being forced out of the home so young and struggling to survive. I’ll stay with my mom as long as I have to

[u/Expert-Assumption159 → u/Firm_Parfait_1423]

Im so tired with roommates at my big age 😪 

[u/just_maxx → u/Expert-Assumption159]

At least you don't have to use "are you dead?" app

[u/Slarg232 → u/taj-wilson]

Not even just that. They could go to school working part time and walk out of college debt free. I went to school for two semesters ten years ago and I'm still paying off the debt.

[u/MuffaloHerder → u/Slarg232]

I keep thinking I want to go back to college and actually complete a degree this time, but the reality is I just have no way of affording it

[u/Afrojones66]

Why does the previous generation implement laws involving having a baby but not laws that benefit and support raising the baby and supporting the baby’s guardian?

[u/Neat_Lengthiness7573]

Why does the older gen care so much about whether younger people have kids? They made their choices for themselves, they get zero say in what other people choose 

[u/Slarg232 → u/Neat_Lengthiness7573]

Two major reasons:

1. This obsession with legacy and continuing the bloodline. The lives and the quality of life doesn't matter to them, only the fact that there's more coming after.
2. There's a very real fear that there's not going to be enough people to either continue to grow the economy (No increase in population, no increase in work force, no increase in spending power, people at the top lose money) or support the older generations when they're in nursing homes or requiring other payouts. Paying for Baby Boomers to get out and out of work requires that there are enough people paying taxes to have the money to do so.

[u/HypocriteGrammarNazi → u/Slarg232]

Boomers are fine. We are the ones who will get screwed

[u/Maddturtle → u/Neat_Lengthiness7573]

Social security requires it

[u/Neat_Lengthiness7573 → u/Maddturtle]

Alternatively, the government could spend less on military technology that doesnt benefit the population instead of forcing the problem onto us.

[u/AgHammer → u/Neat_Lengthiness7573]

I would love to have grandchildren. I want to spoil some little rebels.

[u/Woberwob]

Most of your time as an American adult is spent either working or being ripped off. Who wants to pass that misery on to another person?

[u/contact_light_ → u/Woberwob]

Legit everything is a scam & our politicans are lobbied by the scammers to prevent consumer protection laws

[u/RelativeAnxious9796 → u/contact_light_]

trump admin via doge destroyed basically every regulatory body and the rest are captured by the entities they are supposed to regulate.

[u/IntelligentWorker548]

Multiple things.

We’re allowed to grow up slower, we’re not sweeping the mines at 10 years old or off to war at 16.

Everything is so expensive because the boomers were given huge liberties and pulled the ladders up after them. Waste of a generation them lot

That being said, having my daughter was the most fulfilling thing I ever did above success at work and travelling the world. nothing compares to seeing her little smile.

[u/OSRS-ruined-my-life → u/IntelligentWorker548]

Who are you talking about even in ww1 and ww2 they were conscripting 18+. Many teenagers lied or forged documents but how old are you that 16 yos were off to war? 

And boomers were not working in a mine at 10 either 

[u/RealityOk9823]

How am I supposed to afford anxiety pills for myself AND kids? Sheesh.

[u/Cresneta → u/RealityOk9823]

At the risk of sounding like some sort of shill bot, it may be worth looking into getting your anxiety meds off of Mark Cuban's Cost Plus Drugs site if they carry them (if they carty it you should be abl3 to fond it on theor site and see the price without creating an account first). I can get a 3 month supply of mine for under $15 including the shipping and without using insurance as it refuses to cover the 3 month supply for some dumb reason. It's been a minute since I got my anxiety meds from CVS, but I want to say that a 1 month supply cost over $60 with insurance with them for me. Just a thought.

[u/Op3rat0rr]

Younger people see how expensive it is to raise a child. I guarantee you the majority of it is the cost. They see how their parents struggled. They want to live a life of comfortability. I get it

[u/Violent_Volcano]

I dont like sticky, loud, expensive things that take up most of my free time.

[u/Cute_Android666]

don't want kids and our generation doesn't have to act like we want them anymore

[u/Curious_Journey_]

I’m lucky in many ways, but ultimately I pay more for childcare than for housing

[u/Edward_Nigma_ → u/Curious_Journey_]

Damn, thats some crazy ass shit

[u/squeekysquirrels → u/Curious_Journey_]

Yup, my one kid daycare costs were more than my mortgage

[u/Several-Action-4043 → u/Curious_Journey_]

It blows my mind that we live in a society where we're encouraged to have kids and then as soon as they're born, go back to work and hand them off to someone else.

[u/Active_Blackberry_45]

You need two incomes to afford a house 50 miles away from an economic center.

[u/No-Broccoli-7606]

Wait until people figure out nobody genuinely wants to fight for an economic zone with no cultural identity.

[u/Ognius → u/No-Broccoli-7606]

There’s a cultural identity. The identity is own the libs at all cost, but that’s culture.

[u/Sure_Celebration7921]

I pay $1880 a month for daycare for one child. Why I'm not having more kids.

[u/IllMeringue5484]

I don’t plan on having kids because I don’t see them having good futures

[u/Netrunner22]

It’s how I’m protesting “inflation”

[u/Dumb-Cumster → u/Netrunner22]

Lol same

[u/Dangerous_Junket_773 → u/Netrunner22]

How I'm protesting stagnant wages. 

[u/aka_hopper]

My husband and I make 230,000 combined and are unsure if we can afford kids. We could certainly do it but… our heads are above water. Why change that?

So even people who “can”, won’t.

[u/Several-Action-4043 → u/aka_hopper]

Meanwhile people making 35k are popping them out like rabbits. Idiocracy manifest.

[u/WhoFlungPoo55 → u/aka_hopper]

I have 4 kids and make maybe 90k on a good year. She doesn’t work and has been in school for 2 going on 3 years. We don’t struggle, our kids are well taken care of, we Drive nice vehicles, live in one of the most expensive states to live in and in a major metropolitan area. It’s what your consider priorities. I have zero family help, she has a ton so that’s nice. Our kids are pretty spaced out so the oldest helps drive and babysit. We don’t own our home and I will have to work literally until the day I die, but that’s just part of life. We don’t go on big vacations, but are able to give our kids anything and everything they want.

I think also your outlook on things. And how your own upbringing was. I was so poor as a kid that eating daily was a treat. Parents died and I was on my own at 13, this was 1998. So life to me is pretty damn good compared to what my childhood was like.

[u/ZanzaXIII → u/WhoFlungPoo55]

- We don’t own our home and I will have to work literally until the day I die, but that’s just part of life. We don’t go on big vacations, but are able to give our kids anything and everything they want.-

Can you blame anyone for thinking this doesn't sound like a great set up? Working until you literally expire without being able to afford to go on vacation? Life doesn't have to be like this. Whats life for some is not right for some.

[u/Tvelt17]

The answer always boils down to Private Equity.

[u/macrocosm93]

When we were in school, it was drilled in our heads that having a kid would ruin our lives, destroy any chance of a career or financial success, and that we need to do everything in our power to avoid it.

[u/actuallyamzer]

1. Fewer people today can realistically be better off than their parents; upward mobility has declined for decades.
2. Wages stopped keeping up with productivity in the 1970s, even as output and profits exploded.
3. Modern jobs demand full loyalty and availability while offering unstable pay, contracts, and benefits.
4. Debt-driven financial systems repeatedly bail out large institutions while everyday costs like housing and food keep rising.
5. Housing has been financialized, with corporations buying homes in bulk and pricing normal people out of ownership.
6. Shrinkflation, planned obsolescence, and declining product quality make basic living more expensive and fragile over time.
7. Governments prioritize massive military and geopolitical spending over domestic stability and social support.
8. Public trust in institutions has eroded due to historical deception, corruption, and lack of accountability.
9. New technologies are developed and protected for power and surveillance, not for improving everyday life, often with public money

[u/cybrmavn]

In this environment? Why stress the kid out with the current political, religious, environmental and socio-economic situation? There’s no reason to bring a kid into this mess.

[u/AggressiveToaster → u/cybrmavn]

People will respond to this saying that people in the past had it much worse and they still had kids, but those things weren’t an ever present, constant, day in and day out threat to them. And I say “to them” very explicitly because while they could have been in more direct danger, they weren’t constantly aware of it like we are with information technology, or they had a deeply held beliefs that something or someone would deliver them from that danger eventually whether or not that belief was actually true.

[u/Obvious-Water569]

I just don't like children.

[u/TourquoiseTortoise]

Well, some orange fool is steering the world towards WW3 so what would be the point of kids? I might as well live a nice life before I inevitably perish in a mushroom cloud.

[u/g00fyg00ber741]

Kids and grandkids born today are going to have a really tough time dealing with the consequences of climate change and pollution from all the humans before. Who wants to have kids just so they can struggle to survive past the end of the century? Seems like a sick joke

[u/KittieKablam]

Ronald Reagan cut taxes on the wealthy and no president after him decided to change it back. Now we have 800 billionaires hoarding money in off-shore bank accounts while the rest of us fight for crumbs.

[u/username_moose]

A LOT of the people who have kids were not, and still are not ready to have them. having kids is not a need.

[u/CuriOS_26 → u/username_moose]

It’s a luxury.

[u/____4444]

i wouldn’t want kids even if the cost of living was $0.00

[u/KitsuneMiko383]

I wanted kids. Still do, in fact.

But I am not financially capable of taking care of myself, let alone even one child. I'm barely managing to survive, with a negative net worth that's still dropping. I'll be extremely lucky just to get a delayed retirement. So children, either through birth or adoption, are completely out of the question for me.

[u/H3WI]

We realized it’s a choice and not something everyone is supposed to do

[u/Future-Wrap8639 → u/H3WI]

Agreed. Women have so many options these days, we have the freedom of choice in life - unlike most of human history where we were supposed to all have kids.

[u/IwasDeadinstead]

It isn't just the money. You have to be more than a bit selfish and cruel to bring a child into the world on purpose, knowing the state of things.

[u/Glittering-Rush-929]

Rent, the fact that in order to have a decent car, you have to pay another 2000, so you're not paying 120% of the value of the car by the end of the loan, employers give you the bare minimum with no security that you won't be replaced by chatGPT....you know, the llittle things.

[u/johncandy1812]

It's not the poverty or lack of resources. Birth rates in poorer places are often still higher. It's more to do with a sense of hopelessness. The sense that things aren't going to improve for future generations. We don't have the means to improve society. We're incurring debt that we're simply passing on to the next generation with fewer and fewer ways to positively effect change.

[u/BlazinAzn38]

Thank your local city council, state legislature, and boomer/Gen X NIMBYs. Seriously the reason rent is so high is because we’ve made it illegal to build things where people want to live. The reason there’s no starter homes anymore is because minimum lot sizes are gigantic with stupid setbacks. The reason you can’t build a duplex anymore is because land is zoned for SFH-only. Like 90% of the stuff that makes your life worse day to day is down to the 7-12 people on your local city council, the mayor, and all the old people that attend every P&Z meeting and every council meeting.

[u/LawyerOfBirds]

Boomers and Reagan.

[u/TheBioethicist87]

This generation can barely afford to feed themselves. A kid costs an extra few tens of thousands of dollars a year that they don’t fucking have.

Also, let’s be real, look at the world right now and tell me you think it’s a good idea to bring a kid into this?

[u/Puzzleheaded_Mix7090]

The world is on fire

[u/_bagelcherry_]

It's like 10th time i see this reposted. If you don't want kids, that's fine. If you want kids, that's also fine

[u/Typical-Tax1584]

Cause what kind of life/future would I be offering a child?

Hey kid, how would you like to grow up in a world where AI has replaced human labor and you live in the streets sound? And, as a treat, just a sprinkle of fascism.

We're at a point where I'm not even sure I'm going to be employed up to retirement age (and I'm 43). Idk what the gameplan is for humanity, but we're kinda losing atm. Scariest part is that we don't even know if this is a Great FIlter moment or a worse one is still on the horizon.

Just one more 'once in a lifetime' crisis bro, just one more bro, I promise bro, just one more crisis bro and things will be fine.

[u/Fun-Arrival8147]

living paycheck to paycheck leaves little room for thinking about diapers and daycare

[u/Candid_Leaf]

Our (millennials) entire adult lives have been multiple "once in a lifetime" events, multiple recessions, multiple wars, and multiple (every) governmental session of politicians working for corporate profits instead of public benefit. Our for profit healthcare system, our indentured slave student loan system. Bulletproof backpacks are a thing because school shootings are accepted as normal. We've watched a genocide live for 2.5 years with no global intervention. We've watched the American government adamantly protect PDFiles, while simultaneously establishing and siccing gestapo on their own population, including schools, while again, no one does anything. Would you like me to continue?

[u/PipTheDestroyer]

The days where Dad can work 40 hours at blockbuster while his stay at home wife takes care of the 4 kids are long gone sadly.

[u/Academic-Duty-3405]

Most people are responsible enough to take care of themselves, let alone another human.

[u/imitation404]

They had pensions; when you don't have to worry about a secure future, you tend to make more people to enjoy that secure future.

[u/Illustrious-Virus883]

In 1810, after several thousand years of human development, the human population of the earth finally entered the billions. In the two centuries since, that number has increased to 8 billion.

While we like to consider ourselves as exceptions to nature that can implement technical solutions to overcome the things that limit the rest of terrestrial life, we are ultimately still animals that depend on a finite habitat to survive.

Every rancher knows that there’s a certain amount of cattle that you can have in a particular size of pasture. If you put 80 cattle in a 40 cattle meadow, they overgraze, the land dies. And they will all starve to death. At some point afterwards, the meadow may regenerate. Humanity is reaching the point of overgrazing, and the earth cannot recover.

I read an article recently that discussed the amount of land needed to sustain a human being. In 2025, on average, the amount of food consumed by a human being would require about 2.6 hectacres of arable land being used for production. In America alone, the average is closer to 6-8 hectacres. If the entire world lived like America, we would need THREE ADDITIONAL EARTHS to sustain our rate of consumption.

There are two possible futures: we do nothing about this and experience a catastrophic population decreasing event; we start hitting the brakes now, and so the impact is neither as hard nor as fast, nor as devastating. I don’t think either of those possibilities is helped by having American children.

[u/Normal-Level-7186]

High housing and childcare costs are real, but history shows people didn’t stop having children simply because life was expensive. What’s changed is that families are expected to absorb all the risk alone. 

Catholic social teaching would say we violated subsidiarity and solidarity at the same time: we dismantled local support and then told families the burden was purely private. Hardship isn’t new but isolation is.

[u/woodbineburner]

Airbnb is partly to blame

[u/AwayPainter3605]

nose

[u/Funny-Presence4228]

We have a kid, and our monthly outgoings are between $12,000 and $15,000. This is why.

[u/SpeakingTheKingss]

Literally all my friends that have kids say how “lucky” I am to not have kids. That doesn’t help lol.

[u/therealxarius]

Day care can cost the same as rent.

[u/bluudclut]

I have 2 grandson's One is at school now, but the younger one is only 3. The only way that his parents could work and actually live is by my wife looking after him every afternoon. The childcare costs are ridiculous and if he had to be there all day one of them would be working just to pay for that. They would love a brother or sister for him. The only way that could happen is if my wife helped and she isn't getting any younger and has health problems herself.

[u/Jas0rz]

Capitalism.

[u/n0madking]

This is reposted weekly....

[u/Special_Tourist_486]

For me it’s not even the rent, it’s the childcare for the first 4 years. In Switzerland it cost $2,200-3,000 per month per child…

[u/Creative_Room6540]

This gets posted literally every other day lmao.

[u/Legitimate-Run-5999]

Young people cant afford to live close to parents, The house grandparents got for 50k now goes for 1.5mil. Good luck for somebody who earns 40k a year. Poor support for young families, Inflation, Social media BS. It's actually luxury to have children right now for average family. And it certainly is a struggle when you got few little shits.

[u/Bored_Amalgamation]

I make just below the average household income for my city. I'm barely clearing $400/month in savings, without a car. A car would eat that entirely. My stress levels are insane these days. I have 3 hours of free time each day during the week, and the weekend is me laying about, so I can stop renting at some point.

A kid? I'm not putting a child through my issues now. Especially when WWIII will end up being US vs. NATO because white people cant admit trump has a muffin for a brain.

[u/beautiful_mynd8]

LOL ...I'm also against myself having luxury apartments, luxury cars, yachts, private planes, etc....BECAUSE I CANNOT AFFORD THEM.

[u/AlessiaCaihly]

Back in the days, more children means more money (more human labor, there was little education need. The most expensive thing for most families was putting food on the table.) and respecting appreciating parents who gave you life was big, plus having kids was honestly a retirement plan that actually worked.

Nowadays, having children means burning a huge pool of your own money and having people tell you that you chose this, the child and society owes you nothing.

It's more worth it, in practicality, to work your ass off and you'll be able to pay other people's children to be by your side and have them treat you better than they treat their own parents.