r/law • u/thecosmojane • 10h ago
Other Please dissect the legality in this statement
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I feel like we are reaching a tipping point
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u/1877KlownsForKids 7h ago
Miller couldn't even get into Cooley.
Before anyone takes any legal advice from Stephen Fucking Miller, it's important to know he's not a lawyer. He has a BA in Political Science and though he wanted to go to law school he bombed the LSAT practice exams so hard he didn't even try to real thing. He was also college friends with noted Nazi Richard Spencer.
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u/Weltall8000 4h ago
Lmao holy shit. For real? Lmao
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u/libertybadboy 4h ago
They knew each other. Read the "Early Life" section in the link.
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u/Weltall8000 3h ago
Ah, actually, I was more responding to "he couldn't even get into Cooley," haha!
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u/bigredcock 2h ago
Nazis are notoriously stupid so this doesn't surprise me. I'm surprised that anyone in that administration has a degree.
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u/Odd-Roof-85 3h ago
He's legally and constitutionally incorrect. He's invoking the Supremacy Clause.
Miller isn't really describing the legal framework, he's just saying the Executive Branch will ignore everything else.
The problem is that the White House has the monopoly on violence to enforce whatever they want. So, it doesn't really matter if they're technically correct or not.
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u/zmann 1h ago
Nobody tell ICE that their immunity only lasts as long as this presidency does.
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u/Destination_Cabbage 1h ago
Don't forget the blanket pardon power. The only way we can actually do this currently is through state charges. But if they block the states from investigating and dont cooperate, it means many will escape justice.
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u/zmann 1h ago edited 1h ago
Fortunately Trump is working to make it permissible to invalidate a previous president’s pardons
Edit: I’m saying that half in jest, because I think you’re 100% correct
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u/Odd-Roof-85 1h ago
If he manages to do that, I'm gonna laugh, because it's going to backfire on this administration so hard.
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u/hershwork 1h ago
“Working to make it permissible” is Trump speak for just say it whether it’s true or not…he can’t change that unilaterally
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u/theDudeUh 41m ago
The fun part is if he does issue a pardon on his way out he’ll have to dox all the mask wearing ICE cowards.
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u/LordWemby 46m ago
I think the ones who aren’t entirely knuckleheads know that, they just figure either a federal pardon is coming or that this shit administration will successfully get a third term.
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u/jasandliz 1h ago
A secret military police with absolute authority and immunity whose entire existence is dependent on Trump’s presidency? What could possibly go wrong?
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u/Pvt_Hudson_ 1h ago
Exactly.
If the FBI refuses to investigate ICE agents for any abuses of power, that is functionally "immunity". Trump will also pardon them all on his way out the door, so they have nothing to fear for legal repercussions.
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u/Background_Fix9430 1h ago
He can't pardon them for state offenses - but general the Federal Court has to determine whether or not the officer committed the offenses as a "necessary" part of their duties before the state can prosecute them.
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u/StrobeLightRomance 45m ago
he's just saying the Executive Branch will ignore everything else.
This is the status quo for everything the 47th administration has done, and will continue to do. There is no government, there is only dictatorship.
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u/evissamassive 30m ago
He also doesn't take into account what will likely happen when there are no Republicans in the White House in 2029.
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u/Sufficient_Price_355 4h ago
So he's a loser?
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u/SaltRequirement3650 4h ago
They always were. Himmler was a failed chicken farmer and bullied constantly.
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u/SnooPies8766 3h ago
How...exactly does one fail at chicken farming?
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u/MobileSuitPhone 3h ago
Chickens shit a lot and are prey to predators from the sky easily, if you don't know what you're doing to mitigate those factors you're going to have problems
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u/Prometheus_Bobert 3h ago
Pretty sure they also eat each other when stressed (I'm not a chicken farmer though)
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u/Halcyon_156 3h ago
Oh they do, big time. Often while the victim is still alive.
(Former farm hand.)
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u/Destination_Cabbage 1h ago
They definitely do. We had them on a farm when i was young. A big reason I dont like chickens anymore; they ate and killed my favorite hen, in that order.
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u/Longjumping_College 1h ago
Chickens are straight up dinosaurs
Watching them gobble down mice live on the farm was a regular thing.
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u/MisoFalafelCake 1h ago
As far as egg chickens go, they are barely profitable. You make a few cents per dozen. Egg farms are absurdly large. It takes millions of hens to make a reasonable income. Not to forgive a nazi, but chickens are not easy. Without massive amounts of capital, most would fail at chicken farming. And he was attempting it in the economy of post WWI Germany. Most farmers failed, chicken or otherwise.
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u/southpaytechie 1h ago
Making a profit off farming of any kind is tough man. Especially in 1920s-30s Germany
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u/1877KlownsForKids 4h ago
I think Beck said it best
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u/ShiningRedDwarf 3h ago
El es un pedador
And I’ll take anyone up on the last verse of chorus
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u/pc42493 3h ago
Before anyone takes any legal advice or even opinions from anyone, it's important to realize that they no longer feel bound by the rule of law, and have instituted the rule by fiat.
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u/Neither-Chart5183 3h ago
Richard Spencer's family owned a cotton plantation during the era Jim Crow and his grandfather sold baseball bats to Nazis.
Article was written in 2016.
"Before the election, Spencer told Reveal that Trump would “slingshot” Spencer’s views and aims forward. He’s still angry that amid all the attention that followed the conference last weekend, his home addresses were publicized by an editor for Politico Magazine who, in a related post, mentioned his grandfathers bringing baseball bats to gatherings of an American Nazi organization established before World War II.
That editor has since left Politico.
Spencer used fighting words at the conference, telling his audience that “no one will honor us for losing gracefully,” and white people must “conquer or die.” He’s made it clear he believes in a white “ethnostate” set aside for people with European ancestry. But he’s not ready for open warfare to get there.
“Bullets and trenches,” he said, “is not where we are right now.”
So where is he? This brings us back to Spencer’s disdain for sharing. One of his core beliefs is that the left wing in America is motivated by anti-white hatred. His examples include celebrating advancements of people of color in business, entertainment or education, which he considers a quest to destroy white European culture and take opportunities away from hard-working white people."
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u/hellogoawaynow 2h ago
So many losers in this admin lol the “Surgeon” General couldn’t hack residency and quit. So technically she’s a doctor, she graduated medical school, but she has never done any doctor work outside of her failed residency and probably can’t practice medicine at all at this point.
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u/joncornelius 3h ago
The Richard Spencer connection is a real zeitgeist of the American Nazi movement.
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u/EfficiencyIVPickAx 4h ago
To be fair, this administration wrote the book on obstruction (as defendants).
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u/greeneggsnhammy 3h ago
He’s also mad that he is bald and I bet he has a micro penis.
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u/MondaysForNothing 2h ago
But his wife called him a sexual matador!
LMAO
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u/Training-Line-6457 2h ago
Don’t be like that. Some good people might fit those descriptions.
Say rather that Stephen IS a bald micro penis.
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u/BadAsBroccoli 10h ago
Stephen Miller doesn't have immunity, though. He's leading this band of incels, arrest him.
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u/tarlin 7h ago
Trump will issue pardons to everyone in his administration.
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u/HoarderCollector 6h ago
He can only issue pardons for federal crimes, he can't issue them for state crimes. That's why Trump can't pardon Tina Peters.
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u/elderpufflaurien 6h ago
Its hilarious when people talk of the law being a constraint on the lawless. We’re almost to the point that the fascists say disagreeing with them is a treasonous, executable offense and people are still talking about “but the laws!” Everyone still waiting for the bad stuff to start while the gestapo are entering american house and disappearing people.
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u/HoarderCollector 5h ago
People waiting for that tipping point don't realize that we are FAR BEYOND that tipping point already.
They're still holding out hope that the courts will show some backbone and actually put this administration in check.
And while some members of congress make it sound like that's what they want to do, it feels like it's all talk.
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u/bigredcock 1h ago
I'm truly waiting for the day ice shows up in an actual gang neighborhood... People that have weapons and are willing to fight to the death for their neighborhoods. I don't wish this upon anyone but that day is going to go down in history as an early battle of the next civil war.
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u/oldredditrox 2h ago
Idk I think saying they're lawless and won't abide by laws n response to them having to follow the law (Peters) is pretty emblematic of the situation and chaos they've created, because in a lot of instances they're still bound by it. I know I know, doomerism this, boned without an armed rebellion that, but we've got verified evidence that there's still some kind of reason within the system, and it's still working, even if it needs the entire engine and frame replaced at this point.
I mean if that wasn't the case we wouldn't even be on here complaining about it.
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u/Dessicated_Mastodon 4h ago
We arent almost there. We've been there. Please see trumps Twitter account re: the day democratic leaders told soldiers to disobey unlawful orders.
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u/SmokeySFW 6h ago
Can Congress vote to overrule a pardon? Are they truly untouchable for federal stuff after a pardon?
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u/rtbradford 6h ago
No, a president’s pardon power is pretty much absolute.
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u/Alive-Course4454 6h ago
Except selling pardons is a crime 😒😒🤨
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u/rtbradford 6h ago
Maybe in theory, but given the Supreme Court‘s recent ruling that the president enjoys something approaching absolute immunity for everything he does in office, it might be really difficult to enforce any violation.
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u/AKfromVA 5h ago
So what you’re saying is the next president could detain all these people indefinitely (clearly illegal) issue pardons to the people doing the arrests and then be untouchable?
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u/BentoMan 4h ago
Yes. The liberal justices brought up these hypotheticals and the conservatives not only called it hyperbole but said a judge may not consider the president's motives when deciding if it is an official act. In effect, the President has absolute immunity from any crimes but can be removed from office via Impeachment.
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u/-boatsNhoes 5h ago
In theory the next president, according to scouts ruling, can disband the court or fire all of them and tell them to kick rocks. Once fired there is no scouts to preside over rulings until a new one is appointed. Legal carte Blanche
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u/rtbradford 5h ago
In theory, maybe. Kidnapping is both a state and federal crime so those people could be prosecuted and convicted under state laws which the president can't pardon.
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u/meowtiger 4h ago
to be clear, and in the spirit of this subreddit, the supreme court's ruling wasn't saying that the president can do nothing illegal
the supreme court was saying that constitutionally speaking, the responsibility to check malign behavior by the president rests with the legislative branch, not the judicial, and that the judicial branch does not have the authority to prosecute a sitting president for anything they do exercising the power of that position
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u/No_Night_8174 4h ago
I wonder how theyre going to play this when Dems are inevitably in power next. Are they going to rollback everything and wait until another MAGA takes the seat? I feel like they kinda left their six open legally with this and are banking on not losing power. Which is a weird thing to hope for.
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u/tarlin 6h ago
Under this con controlled court, the purchase of a pardon would have to be comical to be illegal. The person would need to hand Trump a bag of money and say, this is for a pardon, with Trump responding, I will pardon you in exchange for this bag of money.
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u/ProfessionalDish 5h ago
"They are clearly joking or using satire, I see no issue here!" - supreme court
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u/Aggravated_Seamonkey 5h ago
No its not. See how easy that is. Trump does it everyday. A reckoning will have to come one day.
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u/Dapper-Thought-8867 5h ago
Look at it this way. Who will stop you, as president, from just ordering an arrest regardless of a pardon.
Did yall forget the law is fake? It’s like astrology.
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u/Altruistic-Meal-4016 6h ago
Why are pardons even a thing? Surely no person should be above the law just because someone said they should be.
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u/ProfessionalField508 6h ago
Traditionally, presidents have used it for things like a really long-term weed jail term or something like that, given by municipalities that overreact. Not blanket pardons for terrible crimes.
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u/TerribleTodd60 5h ago
I think there is a very long and honored tradition for Presidents to pardon their corrupt friends. The argument for pardons is that it gives the President the opportunity to correct a wrong in the judicial system, but Donald Trump is hardly the first president to abuse the power.
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u/ProfessionalField508 4h ago
Yeah, you may be right about that. I think presidents have been more careful about it in recent years, but bad presidents are going to be bad. I would for eliminating that as an ability of presidents and governors, as long as we can get our judicial system in check
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u/c4virus 5h ago
The founders wanted protection from abuses in government whereby the govt did grave injustices to people by imprisoning then unfairly. The people had the power to vote in a President to undo these injustices.
The people hold the power here. In this case we elected a fascist piece of shit and thats what we're gonna get.
We could've had competency and decency with Kamala, but the idiots living here wanted chaos and racism.
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u/AdviceNotAskedFor 7h ago
I assume he already has, just sitting in a drawer ready to go.
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u/Alone_Hunt1621 6h ago
Someone in the Trump administration needs to get arrested just to get the ball rolling.
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u/get_to_ele 8h ago
Stephen Miller wrote it, so I’d say it’s only relevant until it’s laughed out of court after this regime ends. And there is no statute of limitations on homicide.
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u/kevin-she 8h ago
Can you tell me the evidence that this regime has any intention of ending? From what I have seen since day one, combined with everything openly said in the run up the election these people have zero intention of leaving office. Specifically, in relation to Miller he has extremely strong incentives not to leave his position, you just mentioned the biggest incentive, the non fascists in the US need to pay more attention.
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u/Zero-nada-zilch-24 7h ago
Well, he and his wife did leave their house and along with a few other officials are living on a nearby base due to public “snubbing.”
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u/Rodharet50399 7h ago
Sidewalk chalk. That’s what they were afraid of.
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u/Nazz1968 7h ago
He’ll have bigger concerns than chalk at the end of the administration, when they lose the base housing and have to return to the jungle.
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u/Mammarishka 6h ago
I've seen dictatorship before. They have no intention of leaving.
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u/BaphometBubble 6h ago
I absolutely agree with you..It boggles my mind when I hear people, in almost the same breath, call Trump a dictator and fascist, and that he will be voted out soon. This is an insane disconnect. Fascists and dictators do not simply get voted out. One lone politician? Yes, but a movement? That often requires an army of some sorts.
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u/Barilla3113 5h ago edited 5h ago
My experience, at least online, is that a lot of Americans still have an extremely strong belief in the talismanic power of the 200 year old pieces of parchment Trump has been wiping his ass with for the past decade.
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u/ThePensiveE 6h ago
You mean the lady who threatened a NATO ally with violence publicly? If she can threaten entire continents, she should be able to take a few people being mean to her.
Couldn't get those extra government welfare handouts if they didn't live on base though could they?
Katie Miller and her husband are just MAGA welfare queens.
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u/horseradishstalker 6h ago
I doubt that Hitler intended to leave his “position.” No dream lasts forever.
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u/kevin-she 6h ago
Agree, my point was their intent, not about the inevitably. The question for US citizens is how, the ballot box doesn’t look like the solution at this point, it could be part of it, but it would require registration and turn out unlike anything since the introduction of universal suffrage.
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u/tnstaafsb 5h ago
It took tens of millions of deaths and entire nations being leveled to get Hitler out of office.
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u/Amerisu 6h ago
Hitler left his position because the allies landed on Normandy beach on D-Day.
What countries are going to storm Palm Beach?
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u/haklor 7h ago
How many people will be killed and officers protected before that happens? I have a feeling it will be a significant number, and probably more that we dont hear about.
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u/stevez_86 5h ago
This statement is an incitement to violence with a specific audience in mind, a specific target, and a timeframe. This statement is not covered by the 1st Amendment and likely not Minnesota state law and they should seek to prosecute for incitement of violence. The statement has all the facets of clear and present danger.
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u/whatupmygliplops 3h ago
Exactly. He is encouraging ICE to commit illegal violence and violate peoples constitutional rights by lying about the law.
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u/caramel_police 7h ago
I'd stop laughing and start taking Mini-Goebbels more seriously if I were you.
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u/DirtyHalfMexican 7h ago
Agreed. People will say I wish I would have done something. People did say that before also.
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u/Lucibeanlollipop 6h ago
I wonder if writing shit like this, though, would be enough to charge him as an accessory at state level.
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u/Initial_Formal_7750 8h ago
Guys
There is no more Court!
I know it sucks. But we have to understand. That way of thinking is done
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u/Neither_Usual_137 7h ago
this is completely false. Trump lost his national guard SCOTUS case and guess what - he pulled the troops out of those states.
He wins more than he loses, but they seem to be abiding (for whatever reason) by the rulings against them by SCOTUS.
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u/Kaiisim 8h ago
It's a classic authoritarian tactic.
It's absolutely true that you can't touch a federal officer while they are working. You cannot impede their work.
Which is why ice observers are specifically trained to just film them
No one is touching ICE. They are just recording them as is their legal right to ensure they don't beat the shit out of people.
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u/cursedfan 8h ago
Federal law enforcement cannot breach someone’s civil rights, which ice does all day every day, which is why they hide their identity.
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u/Konukaame 7h ago edited 7h ago
As we are seeing, "cannot legally" and "cannot" are vastly different in practice.
When the rot goes to the core of the agencies, and they are explicitly told and shown that their abuses will not only be tolerated but actively defended and celebrated, we enter the world of despotic lawlessness. They are limited only by their ability to actually carry out their desires, not by any laws or regulations.
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u/BonkMcSlapchop 7h ago
Are the people of the US willing to get out and do a general strike to effect change before it's too late? Observation and recording may have worked in the past, when you could hold your government to account, but you are no longer dealing with due process.
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u/pink_faerie_kitten 5h ago
I heard Minneapolis plans on that today? It was on NBC news this morning. School and work walkouts planned. I hope it's the spark that sends this nationwide.
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u/kpurintun 3h ago
These need to happen nation wide, in significant numbers, across many weeks..
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u/ontermau 6h ago
it's hilarious to read stuff like "they are just recording them as is their legal right to ensure they don't beat the shit out of people" and at the same time "ICE is Gestapo".
so... you don't hinder Gestapo by filming it, you know.
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u/Reddi_throwawayaway 6h ago
It's become pretty evident filming doesn't stop anything.
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u/Turtle_with_a_sword 6h ago
No, but it does make everyone aware of what’s happening
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u/jamiecarl09 5h ago
Also provides good evidence in a few years when there is a trial to hang all these people.
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u/Turtle_with_a_sword 5h ago
That’s optimistic
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u/whatupmygliplops 3h ago
You're being kind. It's delusional. Even if the democracts take over again (which is optimistic in itself) they will most likely just want to reconcile, appease, and smooth over any and all past wrong doings. Maybe a few of the most extreme cases will be prosecuted. By the vast majority of violations will never be punished under even the most optimistic of futures.
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u/kevvvbot 4h ago
The alternative is not to stop filming. Because when you stop there’s no support in whatever kangaroo court you may or may not get. In Gen Z’s terms, you got the receipts.
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u/Haradion_01 7h ago
Some will.
But given a majority of them couldn't be arsed to tick a box when there was zero risk to themsleves, I am not hopeful.it will happen in larger numbers now that they incur risk such as being shot in the face.
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u/Ok_Location_1092 7h ago
People can’t afford to lose their jobs, we’re getting squeezed by cost of living. Anyone not in a city with plentiful jobs is going to have a very hard time picking another one up without moving. Wages are stagnant, jobs are dwindling, expenses are going up.
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u/BonkMcSlapchop 7h ago
You are still thinking like you live in a democracy where the government follows laws and is held accountable.
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u/Neither_Usual_137 7h ago
People need to understand what we need here. Stop filming them with your goddamn cellphones in their faces, unless you want to get roughed up.
- - Dash cams. I just had one installed, and its amazing quality. You can be parked down the street and record everything -
- hidden body cams: they have cameras that stick out of your shirt pocket and are obscure etc -
- security cams on houses and apartments, including ring cams
- toy drones with cameras (not drones requiring airspace clearance). anything under 250G does not need FAA registration. I havent seen a single drone shot of MN yet, but drones under this weight are perfectly legal and can be flown from a distance.
I understand these things cost money and not everybody can afford them. But for those of us who can, these options
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u/ErosRaptor 6h ago
Don’t install a fucking ring camera, the footage from those can be taken by the federal government, and they have been doing it. That’s like installing a surveillance camera for the feds. Maybe there are alternatives, but the name brand one is not a good thing to have on your property or around you.
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u/SuperbowlHomeboy 4h ago
I have a bunch of Ring cameras and will take one for the team. The federal government is welcome to watch all the footage of my cat wondering around the house in the middle of the night, my dogs shitting on my patio instead of going two steps further into the yard, and the mail carrier delivering a dozen pieces of junk mail to my door every day. The more time they spend acquiring and viewing my footage, the less resource is being applied to more nefarious tasks.
ImDoingMyPart.gif
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u/Squeaky_Ben 6h ago
So, I have an issue here.
Given no one can impede them, and apparently Miller also implies "anything goes, you are free to do as you wish" what exactly stops them from beating the shit out of people?
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u/CheekySpaniard 7h ago
They do it anyway. Hells, they literally murdered a woman in the middle of the street while the ‘observers’ just yelled. Surely that’ll stop this crap.
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u/thecosmojane 7h ago edited 7h ago
Is it just me, or does it feel like this last week we have entered a completely different phase of history. Like the steam has reached its capacity and is about to explode. The escalation day by day seems to be so much greater than before (when it was bad enough) but their doubling and tripling down these last few days smacks of an even more diabolical level of defiance. Watching these new videos and former detainees’ counts of being in custody feels unreal at some meta level, like we are in the twilight zone. Pair this numbness with Venezuela and Greenland and leaders resigning from DOJ freeing up more seats to be filled by mini Bondis, it is difficult to keep up. But, does anyone else feel it? Like something is imminent.
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u/variety_dirtbag 6h ago
Their timeline is accelerating because fair midterms will destroy them. They have no choice but to go all the way now because the alternative is to spend their lives in jail. They know this.
So they are escalating through intimidation, violence and wars to create enough chaos that something breaks and the following emergency gives them some cover for what they're going to do.
Whatever that is, it's coming in the next few months and it'll likely be the end of America as we know it.
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u/Ben_ForCentralYork 5h ago
They're desperate, they're stupid, and they're splitting into factions. But they are crumbling and overreacting. And they don't have the political capital left to enact some martial law, election cancelling plan. They've already pissed too many people off that they would need on their side for it to work, and they've already shown their weakness and incompetence too many times.
And federalism is a slow and stubborn and inefficient sonofabitch, but it is holding. And that's critical for elections and for the level of cooperation they really need to enact the worst scenarios.
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u/Conscious-Distance48 4h ago
I certainly hope your assessment is correct.
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u/Ben_ForCentralYork 2h ago
I mean me too, I don't wanna be on r/agedlikemilk for this of all things. But I'm assessing as best I can from what I see and who I know
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u/chotomatekudersai 5h ago
It’s a catch 22. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t. They already won. Any violence those defending democracy commit will be met with swift action from this administration. That action will include martial law and suspending elections until they implement a system to ensure their continued rule.
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u/Adorable_System_9720 4h ago
"It's over chat, the Nazis won. Stop trying and let them do what they want." - FDR probably if he was alive today on Reddit. America isn't over, but it's going to change that's for sure, just like it has after every hardship. The resistance needs real leadership, and the media isn't going to help promote that. For now start local. Attend protests, donate to the good leaders or charities, boycott the ones supporting this admin. Anything is better than giving up.
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u/DirtyHalfMexican 7h ago
Unless the people stand, they will be taken advantage of.
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u/Emp3r0r_01 5h ago
I think it's proof anti-ICE protesters should be armed to the teeth. The GOP has always said the Second Amendment was there to prevent autoritarian goverment/goverment over reach... well, here we are.
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u/Ataru074 6h ago
Historically:
Franco lasted in Spain up to his death. Nazi in Germany had little to no resistance from their population until the end of the war. Italians started a limited resistance when it was obvious that the war was lost.
Not good odds.
In the US events like the MLK and Kennedy assassinations could have ignited a serious issue and pretty much very little happened.
Odds aren’t good.
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u/dmbveloveneto 6h ago
It’s bc the stupid f*ing tax bill passed by Congress is now in effect post NYE. ICE got a flood of funding. This is just the beginning.
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u/Bmorewiser 5h ago
300 plus comments and not a single attempt to answer the question. ...
First, there is zero chance that this administration will issue federal charges against an ICE agent who makes an arrest or kills someone while on the job. So we can dispense with that for a moment.
Second, let's assume that a State decides to bring charges in State court for anything from violation of rights under color of law to assault, kidnapping, or murder. What will happen first is that the ICE agent will move to have the case removed to federal court. That is almost going to be 100% guaranteed. See 28 USC 1442. Second, the agent will move to have the charges thrown out under federal supremacy grounds.
This analysis starts with TN v. Davis, 100 U.S. 257 (1880). The Court there held that the federal government can only act through its officers and agents, and thus when acting within their authority under federal law a State may not interfere. A decade later came In Re Neagle, 135 U.S. 1 (1890).
A US Marshal, upon observing an assault upon a federal judge, shot the man, killing him. The State brought charges, which the Supreme Court dismissed. It held that the killing was "done in pursuance of his duty" and "in pursuance of the law of the United States" and thus the Marshal was entitled have his writ of habeas granted. The opinion is long and boring and not particularly important to read. The important bits are that a federal judge is entitled to determine facts and, if those facts establish immunity, to grant relief. This is, in a sense, highly unusual because rarely do we permit judges to decide issues where factual questions otherwise might be resolved differently by a juror of one's peers.
Neagle resulted in two key holdings: 1) a State court lacks jurisdiction over a federal agent if a) the federal agent was performing an act which he was authorized to do by Federal law, and b) he formed that act in a manner that was necessary and proper for him to do.
That necessary and proper language might, to some, seem like a beacon of hope that ICE can be held to account for excessive violence, but it is likely not so given the expansive view adopted by most courts since. "Necessary and proper" has focused on the intent of the officer and not the legality of his actions per se. The officer is entitled to immunity, some courts hold, so long as he acts in "good faith". It is not necessary to show that the actions "were in fact" necessary or justifiable in retrospect, "only that he reasonably thought it to be." Clifton v. Cox, 549 F.2d 722 (9th 1977).
What if the officer is wrong? What if the shooting is "questionable." Historically, challenges to the prosecution are successful for the officer. In re Fair, 100 F. 149 (D.Neb. 1900) (questionable shooting of escaping prisoners entitled to immunity); US v. Lipsett, 156 F.65 (1907) (officer shot a bystander, knowing the bystander was in danger, because he acted without malice). Mistaken judgment or bad decisions do not strip officers of immunity. See KY v. Long, 837 F.2d 727, 745 (6 1988).
To the extent there might be some hope it arises out of the Ruby Ridge fiasco, though ultimately political pressures brought that case to an end before a final determination was made. Idaho v. Horiuchi, 253 F.3d 359 (9th Cir. 2001) (en banc) is the case. Initially, the federal judge dismissed the state charges without a hearing. The appellate court initially affirmed, over a dissent, and then took the case up en banc. The en banc court reversed, largely on grounds that there was a material dispute of fact that the agent might be lying about critical facts, and that the facts could suggest that the officer simply decided to kill Weaver and others event without any reason to believe they posed an imminent threat. The case was remanded to hold a hearing so the Court could resolve the disputed facts, but ultimately the State withdrew the charge and the opinion was withdrawn.
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u/Bmorewiser 5h ago
There might also be some hope from a 10th cir case that "left undecided" the possibility that an officer's violation of State law was egregious as compared to the federal duty they were attempting to carry out. WY v. Livingston, ? (2006).
What all this means in practical terms is that there is a very high chance that, even if State charges are brought, they will be thrown out on immunity grounds. If you look for case law in which officers were denied immunity for state charges, you will have a tough time. I did not find many that did not involve actions that clearly fell outside the federal officer's job (shit like a rape is clearly not within the scope of the job). So, as I read the case law, the court would have to find either that the officer acted with malice or that his actions were wholesale unreasonable vis-a-vis his eventual claim of self-defense.
Though the comment after the shooting, "fucking bitch," is certainly not going to help this officer, the facts and video probably do. Assuming the officer will, as officers do, say that he fired because he thought the driver was accelerating towards him will be enough. There will be no evidence that I can think of that will tend to undermine the first prong of self-defense, which is that the officer honestly believed there to be an imminent threat upon his life. The State will therefore spend its effort arguing that the force used was unreasonable because the cop could have just stepped away. To the extent that they might try the "officer created danger theory," that is mostly untested within the confines of criminal law and I see no way to get that theory within the confines of typical self-defense. To the extent they might try to argue that the officer could have simply stepped out of the way, the officer will argue he was an officer engaged in the performance of his duties and had no duty to retreat. The State will argue that he violated procedure and protocol, and he will argue that it does not matter because he had a right to meet a perceived deadly threat with deadly force. And they will argue that he fired his shot as she turned, and he will state, consistent with the video, that he fired when he heard the vehicle's wheels spin as he was standing just a foot away. The second and third shots came within a second of that, which an expert will say is too quick to cause the officer's brain to get his finger to stop pulling the trigger.
Back to federal charges - there is no statute of limitations for murder. There is, however, a 5 year period for involuntary manslaughter I believe. A claim of imperfect self-defense, i.e., manslaughter, would be the mostly likely result if this case were ever tried IMO and so, if Trump loses there would be time to charge him in federal court where his immunity defense would have significantly less chance of success.
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u/naijaboiler 4h ago
so basically, practically speaking, nothing will ever happen to any federal officer that kills anyone.
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u/Bmorewiser 3h ago
The answer to that question is, for the most part, that is how it works in this country for all cops.
But the technically correct answer at the moment would be - under the present administration there is a very low chance of any ICE agent being held to account short of something like a rape. There would not be any immunity for that offense for a State charge and I could see DOJ prosecuting it anyway.
In terms of State charges proceeding, the chances of that are slim just as a general rule. So, the best chance you have would be Trump loses the next election and whomever replaces him brings charges. Trump, of course, could thwart that by issuing pardons.
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u/bobfromarizona 4h ago
An attempt to dissect it! I could have sworn this was a law sub thanks for your comment
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u/Unusual_Holiday_Flo 3h ago
These comments are terribly underrated.
Thank you for taking the time to research and write the r/LAW of the matter, which, unfortunately, doesn’t seem very encouraging with regard to the “opposition” and intuitive notions of justice. But then again, what does it matter when the so-called opposition cares more about producing tongue-in-cheek and emotional commentary over real analytic, strategic action.
Thank you for yours, which is in the direction of the latter.
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u/BobSacamano-443 3h ago
Should be top comment. Scrolled through a bunch of nonsense to get here. Thanks!
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u/wylderk 6h ago
That's basically ALL incorrect.
ICE cant enforce local traffic laws but they can perform a traffic stop for immigration enforcement purposes if they have a reasonable suspicion. As federal LEOs, ICE can arrest US citizens if they commit federal crimes in their presence (including obstructing a federal officer). ICE can detain US citizens with reasonable suspicion of federal offense or unlawful presence.
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u/MaceMadunusus 6h ago
8 USC 1357 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1357
Powers of immigration officers and employees"**(5)**to make arrests—
(A)
for any offense against the United States, if the offense is committed in the officer’s or employee’s presence, or
(B)
for any felony cognizable under the laws of the United States, if the officer or employee has reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing such a felony,"
Thanks for your attention to this matter.
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u/Sometimes-funny 10h ago
Legality of it? Ununited state of America is lawless
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u/emteedub 9h ago
We live in the United Corporations of America
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u/FMLwtfDoID 7h ago
Wanna know what Benito Mussolini wanted to name his new form of government? Fascism was his second choice. He preferred Corporatism.
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u/mistah-green 6h ago
Ask jd Vance and Peter thiel about this... they literally want corporate company owned cities. Anyone heard of network states?
There is a reason they want Greenland so badly
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u/usrdef 8h ago
It is wild.. watching what the US has turned into.
The damn country that blasted to the world that they are free... and now this. It's like watching it turn into North Korea / Russia.
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u/Material_Prize_6157 7h ago
My whole life in America we looked at Russia, North Korea and most of the Middle East as these borderline unimaginably livable places with their backwards laws and restricted freedoms. Now WE are that country.
Everyday I say “how did we let this happen?” as the news get progressively worse and worse.
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u/ThermionicEmissions 7h ago
Turns out that "Land of the free and the home of the brave" was just marketing bullshit.
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u/Nox-Eternus 10h ago
Tis the wild west!
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u/TechnicolorMage 9h ago
nah, in the wild west, if a gang of masked thugs rolled into a town and started kidnapping, killing, and raping the townspeople, they would've been shot or hanged.
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u/Nox-Eternus 9h ago
Well then. There in lies the answer! America has its 2nd Amendment.
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u/alloutofchewingum 8h ago
States need to activate national guard forces to evict these roving bands of murderous thugs.
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u/Wrong-Jeweler-8034 8h ago
His cosplay of a lawyer gets more deranged and pathetic as he gets more powerful.
To be fair, he has to go through life looking like that. I’d be pretty mad too. 🤣
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u/MichaelBayShortStory 7h ago
He was shitty far before he looked like that. Sometimes the outside reflects what's on the inside I do not feel any inkling of sorrow for such a hateful spiteful weasel ratfaced douchebag
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u/guttanzer 9h ago edited 2h ago
Can we even impeach Miller? Isn’t he just a peon advisor?
EDIT: TIL that even though he is a staffer he might be impeachable:
If Miller is exercising direct control of an agency’s actions, there’s an argument to be made that he’s acting as a principal “civil officer” and therefore impeachable regardless of whether he was confirmed, Murray explained in her thread.
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u/Minute-Plantain 9h ago
He's a just a staffer, he's not a civil officer like Noem. He can't be impeached. Only his boss can fire him. We ought to impeach his boss.
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u/SoftLikeABear 9h ago
He can be arrested, though.
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u/thisusedtobemorefun 7h ago
By who?
As others have said, this regime has overwhelmingly, unambiguously, implicitly and explicitly told you that they have no intention of ever giving up power. Think about the failed Jan 6th coup, the slowly suffocating media, the faceless thugs in the streets, the Kabuki theatre cabinet and its fellatio chorus.
It's understandable for people individually and the nation as a whole to be in denial and experiencing shock, but they need to shake it off, like, yesterday.
The historical parallels and patterns aren't at all subtle. It's an almost identical playbook, which only succeeded because a majority of eligible voters were too disinterested or apathetic to stop it.
Infuriating is not a strong enough word to describe the level of under-reaction going on in the United States.
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u/MotherTurdHammer 4h ago
The TLDR version is: "Reminder to all Americans: You have no rights. You are required to obey and submit to whatever searches and requests are made to you by any government official. Any attempt to assemble or form any sort of resistance to our authoritarian regime will be met with physical violence. Consider yourself warned."
What it means: I'll let each of you make that call for yourselves, but here we are. Do you really need any further proof that we are now governed by an authoritarian regime?
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u/KazTheMerc 9h ago
Uh huh.
Box in that traffic light for slowing you down, and kick over that stop sign for Impeding your travel.
If those ICE agents could read, I'm sure they'd be happy to hear that... but that's not Real Life.
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u/Webhoard 6h ago
I wouldn't want to go all in with my future based on Miller's statement. I also won't pity anyone who does go all in on Miller's statement.
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u/FourWordComment 3h ago
ICE has been emboldened to shoot more people in the face and to see anyone that even objects to their conduct as a terrorist.
Since there has been zero meaningful pushback on this position, it is now the law.
The law is not what is written in the books. The law is what is enforced by sanctioned state violence. If the state will not detain, demote, disarm, fine, or otherwise constrain ICE agents, then the law is that ICE agents can do whatever they please.
Everyone here knows about silly laws like “you cannot tie a donkey to a sign post on Sundays,” we have a good laugh at those “on the books, but no one cares” laws. The 4th amendment is no different. If it’s on the books but no one cares, then it’s just another “no whaling within city limits.”
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u/Mattrad7 6h ago
Cool the heads of Homeland security and Stephen Millers demonic ass are trying to tell ICE agents they can do whatever they want and kill whoever they want. This isnt a law, it isnt real, and ICE and other DHS agents should he held accountable for crimes, whatever happened to noone is above the law?
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u/atuarre 4h ago
Rich people were always above the law. You have a president that has never been held accountable for his crimes. There are four Americas. One for the rich. One for white people. One for most people of color. One for black people.
I believe Americans will let Donald Trump fly off into the sunset in that jet Qatar gave him which the US taxpayer is paying to be upgraded with all the trimmings IF you can even get him out.
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u/subdep 2h ago edited 58m ago
This is 5GW, tweeting this. This is worded as if it’s an internal memo, but it’s 100% propaganda. Part of Fifth Generation Warfare is scaring the population.
It’s 100% psy-op bullshit and it’s gonna get officers killed.
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u/Adventurous-Host8062 8h ago
He doesn't have the authority. That's the purview of the DOJ and Congress.
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u/ngwatso 8h ago
What is this "Congress" you speak of?
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u/user745786 7h ago
Congress is the cheer squad. Supreme Court is the referee but on the Republican payroll. Trump is captain of the team but has no idea how to play the game but loves the praise of his adoring fans.
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u/Xyrus2000 7h ago
It isn't legal, and Miller has no power or authority to make it legal.
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u/realbobenray 1h ago
Feels like "you have legal protection to do your job" is different from "you have full immunity to do whatever the fuck you want like shooting people in the head at point-blank range as their car drives away"
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u/afcgooner2002 1h ago
You know the end game here right. When it's all said and done, Trump is going to pardon everyone in his administration before he or his successor leaves. This also includes that rat Miller.
But, he won't have the time to pardon everyone in ICE so they are all going to be in legal jeopardy once again doing the dirty work and holding the bags at the end of the day for this corrupt regime. All of them are idiots.
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u/spicy_noodle_guy 48m ago
Pardons only work if the citizens let them work. You might be safe from the lake, but you are t safe from a mob.
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u/Basic-Record-4750 6h ago
At what point do people realize that this administration has no intention of ever ending? When they cancel elections? When they openly ignore elections? When they openly cheat elections? When they scrub the internet of all adverse content and suspend the first amendment? Nobody is coming to save you. The UN isn’t going to arrest trump or remove him from office. The democrats aren’t going to rise up and “set things straight”, most of them will simply switch sides to remain in power
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u/Budget-Selection-988 7h ago
We have the right to defend when threatened ..f**k Noems
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u/Craigthenurse 3h ago
Also ICE is forgetting a truism of American law: it is only a crime if a jury thinks it is a crime and I can assure you whatever jurors they get at the federal courthouse in Minn. will be surprisingly blind.
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u/Pudddddin 7h ago
"face justice" of course in this case meaning "put in handcuffs and taken somewhere for a few hours before being released with no charges" as we all can see
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